F3 comparison P&D vs AtlasO

Pat's grab iron kits and interior kits are hands down well beyond the severely out of scale Atlas metal bent grabs with no bolt detail. Trucks are a no issue, the OCS brass trucks are exceptional.

But hey the Atlas for a ready to roll model are terrific. I would rate the Atlas models as a P&D shell with semi scale and near scale detailing. The P&D kit can be made into a fine scale O5W or P-48 masterpiece. the A&O folks have demonstrated that very well.

As far as drive the P&D drive is terrible. The wheels on those beautiful OCS brass trucks turned by NWSL are terrible as collecting junk in the grooves. It can be improved but it's a crap shoot; China Drive or P&D chain drive.

Opinion and some non-opinion

Hopefully the Atlas locos will actually be made.... I'd go with the P&D shells, especially as you are wanting to do a custom paint job.

 

Jeff C

Have a look here this may help you in determining your course of action.


http://www.aorailroad.com/phpB...ic.php?f=3&t=176

I would explore the A&O sources and perhaps drop them a line.

In my opinion I would scrap the idea of using Atlas for a fine scale project.

Anyone looking for P&D F7's  I have an A-B-A set of kits with all the goodies I'd like to sell.

 

Ed Rappe

Eric - Thanks for the compliments on the A&O F-units. I enjoy building the P&D kits as they afford so many ways to add custom details.

 

Pat's P&D brass grab iron kits are very nice and add a lot of detail. Here's a closeup of one I built.

 

The headlights were scratch built. P&D also has a very nice cab detail kit that is easy to illuminate. Use of this kit requires a drive that lacks a forward truck vertical motor or drive tower. P&D kits are available with a horizontal drive shaft from the rear to front truck. With an Atlas chassis you would either of necessity make the front truck unpowered or leave out the cab details.

 

The P&D cast brass trucks are the most detailed I've seen, and fully equalized, but they do require added wheel wipers for all-wheel pickup.

 

Honoring the original poster's question about details instead of drives, all I will say about the P&D drive is I like it because with careful assembly and optional tweaks it can be made to run very smoothly, without jackrabbit starts, and affords low-speed coupling up to cars without moving them, all without a back-EMF DCC decoder to "tame the drive."

I would like more details on tweaking the drive if you don't mind emailing me the particulars. My email is in my profile. I had wondered if the trucks were adaptable to that. I also have a supply of plastic Weaver Blombergs I wonder if it would work as well...

Vince

The P&D brass trucks are more detailed than the Weavers and designed like Prototypes.    However, the Weavers have easy 8-wheel pickup.    If you have weaver trucks and motors, you can get the rest of the drive train from P&D.   You can get motors too that way along with a complete powering kit.   

 

I have an A-B set of P&D units with the brass trucks.   I added additional pickups to one more axle on each truck.   Mine run fine and I don't remember much tweaking.   The drive is basically the original single motor weaver drive, which I think was a great mechanism.

Bob - how about a couple of pix on those add-on wheel wipers for the P&D brass trucks?

 

One other item.  Rumor has it that the new run(s) of Atlas diesels will come with 14:1 gearing instead of 10:1.  This may or may not be true with the F3s.

PS, the differences in the F3 and F7 kits may be only in the insert parts for fans and grills and such.   Not totally sure.   But if that is the case and the set from Keystoned Ed is a good price, it might be the way to go.   Then you could buy the appropriate details to convert the kit to F3 from P&D.

Jim -

When I get a chance to set up the camera I'll be glad to post a photo or two of the wheel wipers. Right now I'm waiting for PC etch chemistry to come up to temperature, so it will be a few hours.

 

As for the F3 vs. F7 kits, the main kit differences would be the dynamic brake fan and insert (round vs. straight chicken wire), and Farr side grills vs. chicken wire. The F3 also has clear-through side openings below the dynamic brake hatch, and I think the F7/F9 has molded air filters. The former is very convenient when adding sound as it is possible to fit a 1.77 or even a 2.03 inch high-bass speaker enclosure behind the cab. With a Tsunami decoder and the bass equalizer set for a bit of boost, it becomes a very nice rumble machine.

 

Yup, the PD F7 is an F3 with different details.

 

I like the idea of the idler for the Weaver/PD drive from the thread Erik referenced and that could a way to move the back to front connection out of the fuel tank.

 

I'm using Lionel shells, fuel tanks and pilots over PD drives with PD details.

Yeah absolutely Bob!  

 

Your P&D units are the best in the world, bar none. The benchmark.

 

I need to get back up and paint backdrops.

 

I love how you did the lighted panels; the P&D kit is just a wonderful model. As you can see guys you can go crazy with detailing all the way.

 

 

 

 

Wonderful info from you guys, thank you!!!!!

 

Ed, sent you an email on your F units.

 

I have decided to go with the P&D units with the grab iron set. The jury is still out on the trucks, but the lean is towards using my Weaver parts and converting the front trucks to tower drive as well. I really dislike the visible drive shaft, as my models will be viewed from the sides like the real thing. 

 

Vince  

If you're going to do an A-B-A, want fully detailed cabs, and don't want prop shafts through the fuel tanks, a viable option is to single power the A's and dual power the B using truck mounted towers. The P&D/Weaver drives are very robust and you can weight the units so they'll pull very well.  I recall an OST article by Brian Scace for tuning Weaver type drives several years ago. He describes how to gently round the edges on the sprocket teeth so the delryn chain slides more smoothly over them. If I got that wrong Bryan, help me out.  The Weaver RS3 I have didn't require any tuning - it runs smooth as silk.

 

I received several inquiries on the P&D F kits I'd like to sell.  The P&D label say they are for F3 phase 4 (late) or F7 phase 1 (early).  Tomorrow I'll inventory the kits, drive components, and  extra details so I can respond with a price.  

 

Ed Rappe

 

 

Vince -

I emailed the information you requested.

 

Jim Scorse - Here are two views of a modified P&D gear tower. This one will go in a Red Caboose GP9 but the drive parts are the same. It was difficult to find something to hold the tower at just the right angle to see the 0.020" phosphor bronze contact button on the wiper (that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!) 

 

 

Grooves on the wheels have been polished out on a lathe. This keeps the wheels cleaner but they do have a tendency to rust. New Serv-O-Link sprockets and chain have been installed. The bottom one has 20 teeth, and it nominally requires a closer spacing to the upper sprocket than the original 12 tooth sprocket. As a result the new chain runs a bit tight. I was able to reduce binding by heating the tower with a heat gun and bending it ever-so slightly in the middle.

 

There are a lot more photos and details of drive train tweaking at:

http://bobsobol.smugmug.com/Tr...PD-Drive-Train-Work/

 

Hope this helps.

I bought an dummy All Nation F unit.

the original truck look pretty good and the P&D tower gear fit almost perfect. I say almost, because you need to shorter the worm gear shaft to be able to install them. The distance between the journals is little shorter than the rest of the trucks (KTM or weaver)

adding a 24 volts high torque motor and a flywheel the result was just excellent, she was able to run to 1 SMPH, that's pretty slow.

Andre.

 

 

I have both P&D and Atlas. The P&D with the brass wheel sets runs poorly. The Atlas runs circles around the P&D which really surprised me. I have considered returning it and let Pat see if he could straighten it out but it has probably been too long. 

 

Dick

I think for your application you've chosen wisely Vince. If you can handle the painting aspect, building the P&D will be much more road specific and rewarding. Do check out the A&O website as they do some amazing detailing and modifications to their locomotives. A whole new level of modeling from what I'm used to seeing and so much to learn. 

 

Butch

I have chosen to go with the P&D diesels and use my old style Weaver diesel trucks for the powering, however i just discovered i am missing one brake cylinder from one truck sideframe. Anyone know where I can get a spare? Not sure Weaver is open on the weekends....will try them Monday if not.

 

Vince

The friendly folks at Weaver had a few extra brake cylinders they are sending me. Gotta love that company!

 

Vince