Filtering Wall Power

"My conclusion is that a surge protector + power filter is a must."

My conclusion is that there is something wrong with the power in your house, which needs to be addressed and corrected.

There are a few steps that you can take. First, put your meter on other receptacles in the house, with and without the borrowed power conditioner attached. What are your results? Then, if you find that the problem is only at the train receptacle, try turning OFF and ON the breaker, re-seating the existing breaker, or replacing the breaker with a new one.

If this quick test fails to give you a conclusive answer, then a licensed electrician needs to inspect all the connections on "your" side of the meter. This includes the meter pan contacts, any splices before the service switch/panel, and all the breaker sockets. Then he needs to inspect the receptacles that you are using for the train power supply. He can use a meter to watch the supply right at the input to the panel, with the main switch off, and see if he can duplicate what you saw on your meter.  The he can move outward towards the receptacle, until he proves/disproves that the problem is internal to your house.

If he fails to find anything obvious, then the next call is to the utility company. They will check at the transformer that feeds your house for corroded or loose connections, and follow the path right up to the meter pan.

Fluctuations that are so obvious that a homeowner with an analog meter (with its inherent inertia) can see them are indicative of a larger problem.  Noise = corrosion or loose connections = sizzling = heat = call 911.  We pray you won't need to get to that last step.

The gadget you show in your photo is probably not as useful as a professional item such as the one you borrowed from work. Please keep us posted as you follow through on this. It will be satisfying to find the problem, rather than just to work around it.

Arthur,

First, thanks! And second, yikes! I'll do some checks around the house with a multi meter and then a make call to an electrician. When it comes to breaker panels around the house it's a hodgepodge to be sure after three DIY remodels by a previous owner many years ago. The breakers have worked in the past but are old. A while ago I saw first hand what a breaker failure can do when a fluorescent light fixture caught fire in our church gymnasium. We were lucky and the fire was contained.

Will keep you posted on what I find. Thanks again.

Scott

Sounds to me like you need a line conditioner. Not a surge suppressor.

Line conditioners actually try to keep the AC at a consistent 60 hz and 115 volts.

http://www.amazon.com/Furman-A...O/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

But get your house wiring checked first.

Some years ago I had a situation where my computer's UPS would signal low voltage fairly regularly. I called the power company, who determined that the lines running to the pole behind my house needed to be replaced. That solved the problem for me.

Thanks Flash, cancelled the ULTRABLOK order and got the Furman. Not cheap but neither are my $300 and $400 engines!

If you only run DCS or conventional these devices may be OK but many of them will kill a TMCC signal if spike suppressors are used between earth ground and the power leads.

Pete

Would one of these  (UPS) do the job?

Thats not always true.

It depends on the type of line protection device and its proximity to your layout or command base.

I didn't say they all would. If you know of a specific example of a power conditioner that doesn't kill the the TMCC signal you should post it here.

Pete

Pete has a point.  The problem with getting one of these first before being certain it won't affect the TMCC signal is it may not be returnable.   Some surge protectors are known to affect the signal, so it's best to be sure.

The plan for now is:

1) Check the wall outlet I've been using.

2) Have an electrician check it.

3) Get the Furman (recommended by Flash) between the wall outlet and the train table.

4) Switch from conventional to a DCS Commander unit.

Don't know if I'll ever get to TMCC. I'm all MTH and Williams for now.

Rather than the Commander, I'd get the full DCS system with the TIU and the wireless remote.  The DCS Commander is a limited system that does DC to the tracks and only handles 100 watts max.  It's also not wireless, you control it from the console.

John,

Full DCS+TIU will be my reward for getting the DCS Commander to function properly without having my head explode ! Because my layout is small it has lots of Atlas switches in a small space and even with lots of wire drops I have occasional trouble getting enough of Mr. Tesla's electrons to my pickup rollers to keep things running smoothly. I have dual pickup rollers on my diesels and will be attempting the tender truck roller mod discussed in a another recent thread to keep the steamers from balking. I'm looking at the Commander as a stepping stone to greater things in the future.

Regards, Scott

Just though you might want to be aware of the limitations of going that way.

My Fluke meter has an analog "fast response" bar at the bottom of the display, it gives you the best of both worlds.

So does mine, but not sure if the original poster might have one, thus my el cheapo Harbor Freight analog meter suggestion.

GRJ and Sam,

I tried a cheapo hand held digital around the house and got 124-125ish with a little jumping (±1 v or so) probably because I wasn't holding the probes steady in the outlets. Off the power strip in the train room I read 119 to 120 but hard to read any variation (epecially with the dogs helping me). This morning I was looking for a good hand held meter or scope that wouldn't break the bank but there are too many out there. Can either of you recommend something?

Thanks!

Well, you should define "break the bank".

Here's a Fluke F17B for $109 with free shipping on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-Q...rranty-/221054956893

I would NOT recommend a scope as you would need to use an isolation transformer to isolate the scope 110V and neutral line cord from the house hot and neutral outlet.  And second, if you accidently got the scope ground clip on the house hot side of outlet rather than neutral due to backward wired outlet connections, you might get a surpise shock off scope metal case isolation transformer or not.
(how do I know this? .)

Best just use a meter with well insulated probes, with one hand in pocket.

There two ways to use a scope that are safe. First put the ground lead on the screw that holds the cover plate. That should be earth ground. Then put the probe into each side of the power. One side will give no or little voltage (neutral) and the other will show 110-125v sine wave (hot). The other way if you have a 2 channel or more scope is to use two probes and set the scope for A minus B (differential). Leave the ground lead disconnected. Transients are best measured with a storage scope (analog) or a digital scope.

Pete

Ok. My background is in mechanical engineering so I think I'll go with the Gunrunners recommended Fluke for now. I work with a lot of EE's in aerospace. If I really need to get a scope involved I will have one of them walk me through it. Pretty sure I can handle a multimeter withoutgetting into too much trouble .

Thanks!

quote:

Here's a Fluke F17B

Is that the model you have or recommend?

I have analog VOM's and was thinking about getting a digital.

I picked up a Fluke TS-600 a few years back (Estate sale). It worked fine, but I decided it really was not well suited for what I wanted to do, so I gave it to my son for household use.

I have a friend that has this one, and I like it.  I have an aging Fluke Model 77 and a Fluke bench meter.  I'm considering picking up this one or similar to replace the M77 as after many years the M77 is showing it's age.

John,

I was thinking of going with the F117 as it appears to have the little fast response bar you were talking about. Also it's TRMS. Not sure you get that with a cheap meter.

S

I recently picked up a 115 here at work after a student blew up one of my older Flukes. Same specs as the 117 but without the auto AC/DC. Didn't need those features as I have no problem manually selecting AC or DC. It has a max hold setting useful for transient detection.

Pete

The one knock on the 117/117C seems to be it doesn't measure low currents, so if that's important to you, you might want to look elsewherer.

I not only running a "line/power conditioner" but it also has sequencing so 3 outlets at a time are powered up for the advantage not overloading or over draining of power from the get go. It is breaker protected and has un-switched front outlets also. Furman PS-8R series II, Clean power helps for clean DCS and Legacy signals

Here is a link to the fluke product selection guide.

I was just playing with it. You can compare models, or you can select features, and only the models that meet those requirements will show.
The problem I had with the TS-600 was that it only measured ohms to the units digit. It looks like most other fluke meters go to one tenth on the ohms scale.

Some surge protectors are known to affect the signal, so it's best to be sure.

gunrunnerjohn, would you elaborate on that.  I have not heard about that problem before.

Thanks

Surge suppression affecting the TMCC signal has been discussed a number of times here, and more than once simply moving the TMCC/Legacy base power connection directly to a wall socket solved the signal issues.  I don't have any specific brands, as I have yet to be bit by the issue.

Any surge suppressor should have the U-ground connections from the individual receptacles bussed straight through to the wall plug's U-ground pin.  Some of the cheap surge suppressors have flimsy wiring and poor contact grip, and that might cause a problem getting the TMCC/Legacy signal into the house wiring.

Any cross coupling of the TMCC signal from the safety ground wire to the hot or neutral by capacitance of the suppressor devices shouldn't harm the TMCC signal since it will be coupled to those lines anyway by wiring capacitance, load resistances and the neutral-to-earth-ground bond at the panel.

I know that and you know that Dale, but apparently it happens.   Perhaps it's the more expensive brands that have more than a MOV as their active element?

Despite what theory predicts, empirical evidence shows plugging into a surge suppressor can attenuate the signal to where it cannot be sensed beyond a few feet from the base. Eliminating the surge suppressor gives strong signal even on a 600 foot modular layout in the same building.

Anyone experiencing loss of TMCC signal should verify if their surge suppressor is the cause. Our club no longer uses them and have had near zero signal problems since.

Pete

Here is my theory:

If the wall plug from your command base is plugged directly into the surge suppressor then I can see how some signal could be lost, especially on a large layout.

But, if your surge suppressor is placed away from the layout and the command base is plugged into the suppressor by way of an extension cord, then signal should still be good.

Remember, the third prong on the command base (earth ground) is only a antenna. It doesnt even have to go into the actual earth. It doesnt even have to go into the wiring of the house. The antenna only needs to be near the layout and near all the areas where your trains may run. The longer your antenna, the better your signal.

If the surge suppressor is cutting off your signal (i.e. shortening your antenna) then you can always find another way to lengthen your antenna.

Antennas are easy to make.

Just a quick update. I now have a Furman line conditioner installed (thanks to the Flash) and a Fluke 115 (thanks to the Gunrunner) with a visit from the electrician pending (recommended by Arthur). As expected the Fluke TRMS track voltage reading is higher than the cheap analog AC volt gauge I was using. When running series wired Williams or MTH PS2's and PS3's the voltage variation is less than ±0.05 volts max for all readings taken for a full track circuit and nominal values of 6 to 12 volts depending upon the train and speed. I assume that's good. I do have one MTH switcher that is pure conventional that shows more than ±0.1 volt variation around 6 volts nominal with the lowest reading in a switch group area where I have occasional issues and there is an obvious need for more line drops. The difference is that I run the conventional MTH on a CW80 and everything else on a Z1000. I'll be going to a DCS Commander and look forward to using the CW80 for accessories only.

Regards and many many thanks! Scott

I would love to get my hands on (inside) a surge unit that has documented problems!!!