Finally found a prototype to model on a recent Jeep trip

Madison Hill was a 5% grade. Prior to diesels and what ever Pennsy employed in more recent steam days, they used an 0-10-0 on the "hill". Visited there about 30 years ago and found the former Pennsy station. Is it still there?

I commend you on choosing the PRR Madison Incline line - it should be a fun line to build and operate.  Vol 7 issue 2 of the PRRT&HS's The Keystone has a 1 page write up about the locomotives and operations on the line.  The grade was 5.89% and over a mile long..

Some things to consider while selecting locomotives and cabin cars for the  layout.  Avoid the USH/MG N5 cabin car model.  It has a very poor representation of the cupola, roof line, and end sill shape.  You have better detailed options including the plastic Lionel model or a brass one from NJ Custom Brass.  For rivet counters check out the Kohs N5 photos on his web site.  For SD locomotive you may want to consider a Sunset 3rd Rail SD9 vice the MG/USH/KTM ones.  I run a USH/KTM GP7 that I purchased new in 1971.  It was my first O scale diesel.  The US Hobbies catalog called it  a GP9  - but the long hood vents and hand rail post style make it a GP7.  Over several years of running I discovered several short comings with KTM built Max Gray/US Hobbies  SD and GP diesels.  They include:

• large inefficient open frame motor filling the cab - thus no cab interior detail without installing a can motor in the long hood. 
• weak electrical pickup - only on one side of each truck
• nickel plated brass wheels - plating eventually wore off adding to pickup issues  
• no headlights or provision for lighting the number boards

I addressed the above issues on my GP7 many years ago and am quite satisfied with how the model now runs and looks.  However if I was starting out today I'd opt for a Sunset GP with a can motor, ball bearing drive, all wheel pickup, lighting, sound, cab interior, and finer body detailing. 

The two locos on the Madison line were SD7s.    I think they were the only SD7s PRR had, but not sure.   They were ordered especially for that assignment and had a lot of additional ballast (weight) added to improve traction.   

An SD9 is very close to the SD7 in appearance.   I think there some detail differences on the frame.

@artfull dodger posted:

While down along the Ohio River in Madison, Indiana with our Jeep, I found a prototype to model in a trunicated form in my small room.  The ex PRR Madison Hill.   Now I am hunting a pair of the old MG/USH/KTM SD7/9's to model the 2 special PRR units built to work the hill.  A few MG/USH coal hoppers and a PRR caboose as well.   I think with a 3/4 around the room shelf set up, I can get the feel of the hill operation with the steep hill down to the riverfront. I will no model the actual river front, but hide a couple staging tracks behind trees and such.  Then model a small yard at the other end to set hoppers and such out at.  Prototype trains were 15 cars max with the SD on the downhill side of the train to protect against broken coupler run aways.  So the benchwork that Tom Tee gave me will finally be getting used for their designed purpose.  AD

You might also push scott mann to rerun the SD7/9 again.

@prrjim posted:

The two locos on the Madison line were SD7s.    I think they were the only SD7s PRR had, but not sure.   They were ordered especially for that assignment and had a lot of additional ballast (weight) added to improve traction.   

An SD9 is very close to the SD7 in appearance.   I think there some detail differences on the frame.

yes the two locos were specially ballasted SD7s the only sd7 on the PRR. 3rd rail did a run of them. Also for those that want Them on the cheep, the MTH "SD9" is really an SD7.

Good comment prrjim.  Wither's Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel locomotive Pictorial - Vol 8 Early EMD Road Switchers has coverage of the PRR's 2 SD7's as well as their 25 SD9's.  In comparing the SD7 and SD9 photos I didn't see any hood or frame differences - but perhaps they are subtle.    The external differences I can see are that the SD7's  have round pipe hand rail posts  while the SD9's have formed steel channel ones.  Unlike the SD9's, the SD7's were not set up for MU operation and as a result the end platform hand rails don't have provision for a pass through.  There are also cable/hose differences down on the pilot.  IMO a PRR SD9 model with a change of numbers would make a reasonable stand-in for the Madison Hill SD7's.  locomotives.  With replacement handrails they could be near spot on.  One thing I particularly like is that PRR SD's carried keystones on their short hoods making them very distinctive from other PRR first generation diesels. 

The biggest eye catching difference between a 7 and a 9 is the class light.  On the SD7 its centered above the number glasses, its off center on the SD9's.  I am not such a rivet counter than the old MG SD7(if I can find one or two of them) wont do what I want.  I had one and regret letting go of it.  No cab interior is no big deal to me, but I would remotor with a Pittman can motor, along with DCC/Sound eventually.  The plan is to do most all the rolling stock with older brass(I love older brass stuff so that is a personal choice).  The Madison SD7's had several features over the standard model, one was the added ballest, along with the extra thick frame option and lower gearing in the traction motors.  Its also a simple paint scheme I can manage on my own, thus keeping costs down.  We also have a young man in the local group that does really nice weathering as I will set the era just prior to Penn Central, so the SD's will be dirty.  I have reworked many brass models in HO scale, so adding wheel wipers, can motor and such in O scale will not be a problem, in fact it will be easier as I will be able to see it better(darn age and eyesight issues!) That said, other than one I found thats painted in SRR Tuxedo colors that I would have to strip, anybody know of any MG SD7's for the taking?  I have a few HO brass pieces I have held on it that I plan to sell/swap, should be enough value in them to afford me one of the MG SD7's.  I was hoping to find one at the fall Indy meet, but we all know that got tanked thanks to Covid. Dont really wanna wait till the March meet(if it happens)   AD

What steam locomotives did the PRR use in later years on Madison Hill?

From another site: Then PRR built class C30 0-8-0T #8434 blt at Columbus shops 1895. 50" drivers.
then same type #8542 blt 1910
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr8434s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then two specially equipped 2-8-0 s class H6 #8329 #8565 that served until dieselization in 1953
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr8329s.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1)  Potential modellers who like the operational concept but find the SD7 era a little too restrictive in terms of variety of motive power and operations should check out the post-CR operator of the line, the Madison Railroad [ see madisonrailroad.com ] who have quite a variety of equipment, including an ex-NASA r/w/b switcher, an ex-SP GP [ the last loco to operate on the hill ], excursion passenger equipment, usw.  Much more colorful -- of course, it might help if you are married to a locomotive painter, or at least are dating one.....

2)  The large Clifty Creek generating station on the west side of town, although rail served, received coal by barge -- but they did have a small 4 wh Brookville diesel for many years for equipment etc moves.

3)  The operation would certainly lend itself to a upper and lower deck arrangement for the top and bottom of the hill.  They could be connected by a helix, but that would demand a lot of non-productive space.  A removable cassette could also do the job, but a more elegant approach would be an elevating, hinged, rotating section......

SZ

@Keystoned Ed posted:

Good comment prrjim.  Wither's Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel locomotive Pictorial - Vol 8 Early EMD Road Switchers has coverage of the PRR's 2 SD7's as well as their 25 SD9's.  In comparing the SD7 and SD9 photos I didn't see any hood or frame differences - but perhaps they are subtle.    The external differences I can see are that the SD7's  have round pipe hand rail posts  while the SD9's have formed steel channel ones.  Unlike the SD9's, the SD7's were not set up for MU operation and as a result the end platform hand rails don't have provision for a pass through.  There are also cable/hose differences down on the pilot.  IMO a PRR SD9 model with a change of numbers would make a reasonable stand-in for the Madison Hill SD7's.  locomotives.  With replacement handrails they could be near spot on.  One thing I particularly like is that PRR SD's carried keystones on their short hoods making them very distinctive from other PRR first generation diesels. 

the glaring detail difference between the SD7 to the SD9 is the SD7 class/marker light is mid end angle with a metal brow compared to the SD9 which has the GP 7/9 style angled class/marker light at the outer end angle.

I hadn't notice the different marker light style and location when looking at the PRR SD7 and SD9 pictures in the Wither's book.   That raised my curiosity about how KTM detailed their SD models.  I started by reviewing a collection of old USH and MG catalogs and news letters.  The KTM SD's were listed as SD9's by both MG and USH.  Per a 1963 MG price list they sold for $135.  I did a Google search for images of a USH SD9 and found several pictures of a mint model previously posted on the Brass Trains web site.  The photos reveal that the model's classification/marker lights are located close to the side walls like on an SD9 - but not on an angled fixture.  The handrail posts are of the pipe style found on SD7's.     

The headache is locating one or two of those MG SD's to buy.  Only one turning up so far is detailed and nicely painted for the Southern.  I hate to pay more for a model just to have to strip, remove details and repaint.   I can find HO models no problem, I can come up with one old Hallmark SD7 and I may know where there is another one.  But a brass O scale one, thats affordable, is another story.  I can find an expensive one, an Overland new in the box with lots of extra details.  But I know its price is gonna be up there, way more than the old MG/KTM model. 

Are there any good books with pics that cover the operation during the SD7 era?  Something that shows rolling stock, cabooses seen on the runs ect.   AD

I have the funds in place to buy either the old O scale MG SD7 that is currently in Southern RR colors or an unpainted Overland DRGW SD7(should pass for PRR with a minor horn change and removal of the firecracker radio antenna) in HO scale. I know I can pull off a decent Madison Hill set up in HO, but with only 9 foot by 10 foot room, can it be done in 2 rail O scale using that 6 axle power?   Need to do a reality check before I drop the $$ and go the O scale route.  Obviously it will be just a snippet of the line in O scale.   Your thoughts and ideas?   Thanks guys!!!