Fixing the LionChief and Universal Remote

The knob - I found it super plasticy feeling, imprecise. The pointer shape is really the only grabbable area, and twisting it while pinching is pretty uncomfortable. That fix is easy, replace the knob! I chose a Davies large skirted fine 1600BM since it fits nicely in the well on the top of the remote. It’s made of quality phenolic resin material, is super easy to precisely grip in a variety of ways. You can even one hand the remote and use your thumb to slide roll the knob on its side. 2 bucks well spent.

Making it easier to find center off can be done a few different ways. I thought the easiest path would be to replace the pot with one that has a center detent. The no-name pot that Lionel’s sub contractor uses is a linear 10k, and luckily the same size as commonly available Alpha (Taiwan) pots which have center detent versions in a variety of values. I don’t believe the value to be critical, I used a 25k in mine. The combination of having a center-off detent and the smooth usable knob means you can really operate the remote one handed, without having to look at the remote or even the engine which helps in throwing switches, etc. It feels really good.

Finally, I found it very hard to find the slowest speeds, without hitting a dead stop or having the engine take off. To fix this requires adding resistors to the pot, one from each end to the wiper. This changes the tapered response of the linear pot to an inverted “S” curve which is pretty weird for normal use of a pot, but for a control which is center off, exactly what I wanted. Here’s a plot of how the response curve can be modified by simply adding resistors:

You can see how the slope is flatter around the center position, gradually gets steeper, and then sharply steeper at the extremes. This gives you a little dead zone around the off detent, and allows you to ease into that first speed steep, let’s you get to medium speed through most of the rotation, saving the highest speeds for the end (personally I never run that fast and would actually consider adding resistors to the ends of the pot, reserving its resolution for my actual usable range of speeds). Anyway, I like this changed response. Here’s where I added the resistors:

The result of these three changes, at least for me, completely transforms the experience of using the LionChief remote. I have a Lionel Universal Remote on order, I’ll definitely be taking a look at that one when it arrives.

What is the value of the resistors you added?

I like the original knob. I have no problem with controlling the engine without looking at the remote. I very much enjoy operating two trains on the same track. I watch the layout with one remote in each of my hands and I never need to look down at where the knob is on either of the remotes because I can feel it. More importantly for me, my grandchildren as young as 2 years old can operate the trains because the remote is so intuitively obvious how it works.

I do like what you have done with the  center detent. If I could purchase a universal remote and choose center detent as an option, I would definitely choose that option. But I would not pay extra for it because it solves a problem that I don't actually experience.

I like the new round knob. I have one original LC remote and the Universal (and a Menards). The pointer-shaped handle is not easily operated with just your thumb. I also find that I'm using both hands to operate the remote.
I'm actually surprised that Lionel didn't use a version of the Cab 1, 1L, 2, Red knob on the LC remotes. Where was the marketing department on that one.....

Also big agreement on adding a center off detente. I've slammed a train or two back and fourth trying to get to "off".
The resistors are a good idea too.

Nice work.

Bob

@Jayhawk500 posted:

What is the value of the resistors you added?

I used 22k. Also these should be 1%.

Neat changes, that's thinking outside the box!

The result of these three changes, at least for me, completely transforms the experience of using the LionChief remote. I have a Lionel Universal Remote on order, I’ll definitely be taking a look at that one when it arrives.

I love the idea of limiting top speed by adding more resistors.  If you figure out how to do that, please share parts numbers and photos!

I was pretty dissatisfied operating my LC+ 2.0 with the Universal Remote,  I found it "jumpy" at slow speeds.  If you can work similar magic with that one, I'll definitely follow the trail you're blazing here.

For the record, I performed the latest firmware update on mine as soon as I opened the package.  I wish I would have tested it before doing the update.  Does anyone know what the firmware update does to the Universal Remote?  Thanks for sharing your work here Christie!

@Ted S posted:

Does anyone know what the firmware update does to the Universal Remote?

@Vernon Barry posted:

Version History

• 1.4

  Feb 20, 2020

  Version 1.4 of the Universal Remote Code adds the following features:

  - Compatibility with iOS 13

• 1.3

  Oct 11, 2019

  Version 1.3 of the Universal Remote Code adds the following features:

  
  

  -Adds functionality for running Radio Frequency (RF) engines through Hotspot Mode.

  -Various bug fixes for increased performance reliability.

• 1.2

  May 18, 2018

  Version 1.2 of the Universal Remote Code adds the following features:

  -Adds functionality for running ABA (and similar) consists. Run an ABA set on one channel while being able to run single engines on the other two channels!

  -Various bug fixes for increased performance reliability.

• 1.0

  Oct 3, 2017 -Original release

Wrong updates!  That's the LC app, not the orange universal remote!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Wrong updates!  That's the LC app, not the orange universal remote!

"Version 1.4 of the Universal Remote Code adds the following features:.........."

"Version 1.3 of the Universal Remote Code adds the following features:................"

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the Universal Remote has to do with a phone IOS version.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the Universal Remote has to do with a phone IOS version.

Hotspot mode protocol maybe? Or maybe just the updater app that flashes the firmware version had some reason it had to be updated?

It's a fair question as to what changed, specific to version 1.4 , no new feature is listed, nor is any bugfix, and sure, it could be a situation where nothing actually changed in the remote firmware version- the notes leave something to be desired. Heck wouldn't be the first time seeing that game- just look at the Legacy 990 set, the base still technically 1.6, while the remote is getting the higher revisions, but it may be downloaded packaged together as a higher version number.

@Ted S posted:

I love the idea of limiting top speed by adding more resistors.  If you figure out how to do that, please share parts numbers and photos!

I was pretty dissatisfied operating ny LC+ 2.0 with the Universal Remote,  I found it "jumpy" at slow speeds.  If you can work similar magic with that one, I'll definitely follow the trail you're blazing here.

For the record, I performed the firmware update on mine.  I wish I would have tested it before doing the update!  Does anyone know what the firmware update does to the Universal Remote?  Thanks for sharing your work here Christie!

Just received my universal remote yesterday. It’s, uh, interesting. I might start a new thread for that guy.

The high speed limit is easy to do but would require a little personal experimenting to find the “right” top speed for your taste. Basically you would patch a resistor between each of the two outer legs of the pot and the pcb. Those would limit the voltage range delivered by the pot, but you’d still have the full sweep and physical range of the knob. Please let me know if that doesn’t make sense.

That’s the second complaint I’ve read about slow speeds and I haven’t been looking. Do you find the train jumpy at slow speed or do you mean it’s jumpy coming from center-off to a slow speed or jumpy between slow speeds (not smoothly accelerating or decelerating)?

I like your mods--thanks for sharing!

@christie posted:

That’s the second complaint I’ve read about slow speeds and I haven’t been looking. Do you find the train jumpy at slow speed or do you mean it’s jumpy coming from center-off to a slow speed or jumpy between slow speeds (not smoothly accelerating or decelerating)?

Jumpy coming from center-off, and jumpy between slow speeds.  I had a very similar LionChief Plus "1.0" steam loco with its bundled remote handy for comparison, and it was much smoother and easier to control (however both locos could reach top speeds beyond my comfort level.)  The LC+ 2.0 loco ran as expected with a CAB-2.  [ It's too bad CAB-2s are now worth $600+ and discontinued, no way I would put one of those in the hands of neighborhood kids. ]

LionChief 2.0 was supposed to have Legacy-grade hardware with more speed steps, and the promise of BETTER control.  Personally I don't like running my trains with a phone app.  And based on my (limited) experience a Universal Remote in stock form isn't the answer.  I have been seriously looking into other direct R/C systems like Airwire and Ring Engineering's RailPro, but your mods could save the day.  Following!

So I think why the universal remote is jumpy coming from center-off is because of how they implemented a mechanical center detent.

See there’s a rib cast into the the lower portion of the knob that interfaces with the hill and valley on that tab above the announcement/shift button on the remote. I think it feels terrible. It requires too much force to snap the knob into center, feels very notchy, and actually gives you a double hit going into off - first when the rib hits the hill on the tab, then again as the rib pushes down the tab and you snap into the valley. Coming off of center, I think the spring force of the tab on the rib is what’s kicking you to a higher than expected speed.

Better implementations of this kind of mechanical detent might use a v or u shaped spring that pops into a single valley - no hills. I have an ancient Fleischmann starter set controller that does this, even with their plastic construction and knob.

If you like the current knob shape, feel and finish, try drifting the knob out to reduce or eliminate the mechanical interaction. If that satisfies you, you can leave the knob shifted out like that, or shave down the rib. I tried that and it definitely reduced the force to click in and out of center, but it still felt notchy/scratchy to me.

Two concerns about adjusting the taper of the pot on the universal remote are that it’s for multiple engines, so one size may not fit all nicely (of course back in the old days ALL analog train controllers have this issue - you are adjusting TRACK voltage, not necessarily engine…); and that presumably interpreting the value coming off the pot is under software control before going out to the engine. So adjusting it now to feel good might end up feeling lousy if Lionel updates that part of the remote firmware. Then again, it’s a 50 buck remote so no great loss, but I thought I should mention it.

In the end, I’m going to replace the knob, pot, adjust the taper, all as described above.

@Ted S posted:

…The LC+ 2.0 loco ran as expected with a CAB-2.  [ It's too bad CAB-2s are now worth $600+ and discontinued, no way I would put one of those in the hands of neighborhood kids. ]

Ted, if you have the Base2 already set up but don’t want to risk the Cab2 - and I don’t blame you! I’ve spent a fortune on backups - there’s always the Cab-1L for about $150. Pricey for sure (ie more than most dcc whole starter systems) but at least easily found and orderable (still)

@Ted S posted:

…it was much smoother and easier to control (however both locos could reach top speeds beyond my comfort level.)  

I only have one LionChief Plus 2.0 locomotive - the recent version of the 0-6-0T Dockside switcher and just tried it with the universal remote. I agree - unmodified, it is not an experience I could really recommend. Jack rabbit starts, and really not much useable range of of slow speeds- very twitchy on the speed adjustment. I clipped a pair of 10k resistors into the pot and really it’s much much better and smoother, nice control of speeds for that first half of rotation. I wish the first speed step was slower, but at least you can ease into it.

BTW, on one of the older conventional versions of this engine I stripped the e unit and ran as straight polarity controlled direction DC. With a good controller it was capable of a great switcher-worthy crawl.

"Cab-1L for about $150. Pricey for sure (ie more than most dcc whole starter systems) but at least easily found and orderable (still)"

I don't think you can buy any starter system for DCC for less than $150, and that would be a hard wired system, not a wireless remote control.  Different beast in many ways.

@christie posted:

I only have one LionChief Plus 2.0 locomotive - the recent version of the 0-6-0T Dockside switcher and just tried it with the universal remote. I agree - unmodified, it is not an experience I could really recommend. Jack rabbit starts, and really not much useable range of of slow speeds- very twitchy on the speed adjustment. I clipped a pair of 10k resistors into the pot and really it’s much much better and smoother, nice control of speeds for that first half of rotation. I wish the first speed step was slower, but at least you can ease into it.

BTW, on one of the older conventional versions of this engine I stripped the e unit and ran as straight polarity controlled direction DC. With a good controller it was capable of a great switcher-worthy crawl.

I run my LC+ 2.0 locomotives using TMCC, no control issues at all.  I only have I think four of them, they're a minor part of my stable.  I do have two of the first version of the 0-6-0T switcher, for $200/ea it was hard to pass up!  I also have the PRR RS-3 and the Polar Express.  Can't complain about any of them, they work well for their intended purpose.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I run my LC+ 2.0 locomotives using TMCC, no control issues at all.

Agree. Until yesterday I had only used the LC+2.0 with TMCC and Legacy control hardware. I was very surprised how different using the Universal remote felt, and last week the LionChief remotes.

Since the LC+ 2.0 doesn't come with it's own remote, the choices are the BT app, the Universal Remote, or TMCC.  Of the three, it's TMCC as the runaway winner for my use!

@Landsteiner posted:

…I don't think you can buy any starter system for DCC for less than $150, and that would be a hard wired system, not a wireless remote control.  Different beast in many ways.

You are right, $200 is really the line and that is for lower amperage set ups for smaller than O gauges, where I’ve spent most of my time this year.

@christie posted:

…I’m going to replace the knob, pot, adjust the taper, all as described above.

Just to close the loop on this thread, I performed all three changes on my universal remote and got the same improved (at least for my taste) feel and behavior. Have at it!