Flyer 1st gen CI electric

I can confirm B and D and I can confirm B with and without a headlight.

Never seen or heard about 'A' before. Something that I find interesting is that my example, shown above, is described as the earliest variation. Here's the description from when I ordered it. (Price removed for privacy)

Earliest electric steam locomotive no. 1216 with nice American Flyer 
     Line no. 120 tender, locomotive has the open boiler front with light
     mounted, correct eight spoke cast wheels, side rods, shiny original
     black paint with a few chips, gold trim and red painted under cab 
     windows, tender is correct for period with early open frame, 
     overall E-

Lionel2056 posted:

Never seen or heard about 'A' before. Something that I find interesting is that my example, shown above, is described as the earliest variation. Here's the description from when I ordered it.

thanks for the input so far.  pretty busy today to comment much, but just wanted to add... i really wouldn't blame anyone for claiming that any one of these was not the "earliest" Flyer electric.  Types I and II were produced in the late teens and early 20's.  at that point Flyer stopped producing CI steam outline electric locomotives until the 1930 Type III was introduced.  Schuweiler isn't really 100% clear in his text and really doesn't comment at all on the different motor styles.

so putting these "1st gen" models in any sort of chronological order is purely my own speculation.
cheers...gary

Overlandflyer.  I'd say your thinking is a bit more than speculation.  When you manufacture something for an extended period of time there is a constant focus on the issues of better/cheaper/faster.  To this end I would offer the following:  

The engine you have identified as the first iteration has many hallmarks of a first try.  The motor proper is bulky and the roller pickup not only is flimsy but is somewhat labor intensive with the way it appears to be constructed - at least three separate pieces that have to be bolted together - the pickup with roller, the connecting wire, and the hex nut.

  The roller pickup assembly on the second motor is a pre-manufactured assembly requiring only a single screw to mount. It is a cleaner construction and it is not nearly as fragile as the first pickup assembly appears to be.

  The third engine has two things - diecast wheels that have to be easier to manufacture and mount when compared to turned steel wheels and a single pre-assembled pickup assembly that fits into the main motor frame.

  The overall motor assembly of the fourth engine is a cleaner, simpler design and, I would believe, easier to manufacture.

  Obviously, this post is also speculation but it is speculation tempered with over 20 years experience working in manufacturing with products whose construction evolved in just this way.

First post to the forum, but I would like to add to this post.  Your chronological order of what you have posted is somewhat reasonable, but I am not sure about the order of C and D.  I will add the following about item C.  The motor with the brushes and armature entirely enclosed within the frame of the motor can be specifically dated to 1922 and is a short-lived motor.  I say this, because that style motor, but smaller in size appears only in the Motor 1101 with the cast-iron frame, which dates to 1922 only.  I have seen this style of motor, but smaller in size in both the 1101 and in a small steam engine.  The larger motor, like you show, is found in both a steam engine like you show and also in a 1201.  Therefore, I would say the motor you identify as D is likely produced earlier than item C.

As for your focus only on the style of motor and not style of motor shell, you need to focus on both, because the style of motor shell that you have shown first appears in 1920; therefore, none of the motors you have shown pre-date 1920.  Therefore, you are missing the pre-1920 motors and they do differ from the motors that you show.  

You are correct in your notation that the earliest motors only had a single axle being powered and the earliest power pick-up style is the long tab with roller, also the wheel style on yours is one of the early versions, but not the earliest version.  All of the motors that you show feature die-cast wheels.  

The latest Greenberg's guide discusses these engines and shows one very poor black and white photo of the earliest style of motor.  I don't recall the page, but it is there.

I am going to add photos (if I can figure out how) of the engines in reverse order (starting c. 1919/1920 and going back to c. 1918)

The above engine has the die-cast wheels similar to your item A.  You will note that this motor features a gear that is no longer centered, but it is above and forward and only makes contact with 1 wheel and associated gear.  Obviously, this motor also features the earlier boiler, which is larger.

The above engine is very similar to the first that I posted, but now the wheels are cast iron and machined.  These wheels are only found on the earliest of the motors.

Look carefully at the motor that is pictured below.

OK, the above motor was found at a flea market in Chicago.  I personally showed the motor to Alan Schuweiler to get his opinion.  Alan's opinion was that he could not say for certain what the motor represented, other than it was factory produced.  Alan indicated that there is a letter from W.O. Coleman to Louis Hertz that talks about American Flyer producing 50 electric motors in 1918 to test the market.  Alan thought that this motor may represent 1 of those 50 motors.  

The characteristics of this motor do not make it into a full production run, as the bars that hold the brushes and armature in place are crude bar-stock and the bolts that hold these bars in place go from one-side of the motor to the other side of the motor and are held out from the frame by spacers.  Additionally, this motor features tube-style brushes and not the finger brushes that are found on all Flyer motors up until c. 1925.  The other oddity of this motor is that the inner field is held in place by nuts and bolts and can be removed from the frame to check it easily.  The gear is also not as high or as far forward as the later motors and is held on with a nut.  Also note that the frame on the side of the gears is not punched out and the armature is in no-way exposed on this side.  One other feature that is not as noticeable, is that the cast-iron wheels on this motor are not machined and are not painted, like the wheels on the previously shown engine.  

As for the gold paint on this engine, all I can say is that it has been on the engine for a very long time.  Likely painted by a former owner, but after 100 years, who knows.  

Last thing to add, once I was able to find some small springs and file some brushes down to fit in the tubes, this motor still ran.

NWL

"I'm Bad, I'm Nationwide" - ZZ Top

In my last post, I indicated that Overland Flyer's version C motor also appeared in a smaller sized version.  Here are photos of that version.  Note the wheels, which are smaller and do not have the steel rims.

This is the same sized motor that fits in the 1101 motor with cast iron frame.  In the 1922 catalog, the catalog shows set 1101 and then below it notes a different set number with "same as above, but with steam engine"

NWL

"I'm Bad, I'm Nationwide" - ZZ Top

Nation Wide Lines posted:

In my last post, I indicated that Overland Flyer's version C motor also appeared in a smaller sized version.  Here are photos of that version.  Note the wheels, which are smaller and do not have the steel rims.

This is the same sized motor that fits in the 1101 motor with cast iron frame.  In the 1922 catalog, the catalog shows set 1101 and then below it notes a different set number with "same as above, but with steam engine"

wow... this is a new one on me... it is definitely a Type VIII clockwork body...

with an electric motor!  the timeframe of the Type VIII is early 20's which would fit in with the other early CI electrics.

it's going to take some time to soak in some of the other information and pictures you posted earlier... really appreciate all the new (to me) data!

cheers...gary

Overland Flyer,

Look at the photo on page 75 of the Greenberg's Guide to O Gauge 1997 edition.  The top engine is the early style #15 locomotive with the cast iron wheels and the lower engine is the later style #15 engine.  Not a great photo.  I see that the early style #15 casting is also shown in a color photo on page 55, but it does not show the gears.  

I am not sure that the early style casting #15 ever came with an operable headlight.  I have never seen one, but that does not mean that one might not exist.

As for the smaller engine, it is not shown or described in Greenberg's, as far as I can see.  Therefore, I had to dig out my digital catalogs.  The 1922 catalog simply describes "Set 1100, same as set 1101 but with steam engine and 120 tender"  Set 1100 is only described in the 1922 catalog.  The 1923 catalog does not describe this set, which is why I said the motor style with the brushes and armature enclosed in the frame was short-lived.  My engine came with all of the components of set 1100, the engine, 120 tender and 2 green Seattle 1120 coaches.

The 1922 price list indicates this engine is #1100, which makes sense as the engine in set 1101 was the 1101 engine.  

NWL

Nation Wide Lines posted:

Overland Flyer,

Look at the photo on page 75 of the Greenberg's Guide to O Gauge 1997 edition.  The top engine is the early style #15 locomotive with the cast iron wheels ...

oh i'm aware of the earlier large CI Type.  i was hoping someone would have one to show off and here you go and post three.  that last one is quite a wild touch-up by who i would agree was likely the original owner or someone else in that period.  it's great that you're keeping it "as is".

i only have a single example of the clockwork Type V locomotive...

and none with this shell as an electric.