Flyer Chief Berkshire Prices are up...

I agree with you. Pre-orders are crucial. I ordered my Berks from my LHS. The price for me will be just north of $300, but I have to support my LHS because it's the local hangout. All my friends are there.

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Hi Mark,

While I generally agree with your post, I do think you are a bit high on the cost of the DCC conversion for the AM Northern.  And comparing DCC to FlyerChief is a bit of a stretch.  I would think it would cost you about the same to convert the Berk to DCC as it would the Northern.  If you are running DCC then FlyerChief is not an option (it requires AC doesn’t it?).  If you are running on AC then you wouldn’t convert the Northern to DCC.

I have pre-ordered a Berk from Doug Peck – Nickel Plate I will add.  I don’t see Flyonel ever offering another version of it and if they do… well I will already have mine.

I see FlyerChief as just one more proprietary system. How many different systems do we need?  Is it compatible with any other system?  I run DC at present and will not add AC just to run one engine.  I can foresee getting into DCC at some point, but adding Legacy, Railsounds, FlyerChief and goodness knows what other non-compatible system they have or will have.

Just say no to proprietarily systems,

Tom Stoltz

in yet another blizzard, Maine

Hi Tom,

Actually, if the FlyerChief+ is like the LionChief+, it will run on fixed voltage AC or DC, and even DCC track power using it's supplied radio transmitter, and will even run on a conventional AC Power Pack (if you throw the switch on the loco to run conventional) using it's built in electronic e-unit. The basic LionChief train sets (not plus) come with a fixed voltage DC power supply., but they don't have the e-unit. The big question is, since the Berkshire are supposed to be released in a train set, will they just be regular FlyerChief, or will they be FlyerChief Plus? I have run my LC+ Mikado on our club modules at the same time others were running DCS and TMCC! using it's transmitter. From what I have read, the LC+ and FC+ locomotives may well be equipped with the most compatible control system available to date. Now, if only the Berkshires were easily convertible to scale, they would be just about perfect (providing they actually are FC+)!

Bill in FtL

I think the new Berkshire is a home run for Lionel Flyer.  It has a great features set for the price, is scale proportioned (just like Gilbert steamers), and is a brand new prototype never offered in hi rail S.  Is it a perfect offering?  I'm sure if you asked 100 modelers, you would get 100 different answers about what feature set they preferred.  It's impossible to please everybody with a single product.  I would like (and pay extra) for an upgrade to full TMCC functionality.  But this is still a fantastic offering for the price.  I bet they will sell a ton of these engines and they will become a workhorse on operator's layouts for years to come.

I've also ordered a Nickle Plate Berk from my LSH to justify my sloshing around the place.

I'm curious about the "Chief" control system and it looks to be a good enough model to go with my other hirail stuff.  Too bad we have to wait a year or so for it to show up.

I also have access to a River Raisin NKP Berk, so I'll be able to do an apples to oranges comparison.

Rusty

Shocked to see the new December 2015 release date on the PE.  Knowing corporations, they will push it to the back burner since they have "all year"... and as December looms closer the project will be rushed and may miss the PE Christmas selling season yet again.

They'd better get that thing out there before the PE market peaks/recedes (if it hasn't already).

Hi Bill,

I stand corrected, or at least partially.  Thank you for the information.  The list of systems is impressive… I didn’t know there were so many.  I’m still not so sure about the ability to run these things on DC, though.

Let me ask; I just bought a Flyonel 4-6-2, are you saying that I can place it on the rails of my DC layout and it will run?  I won’t have to take the electronics out of it?  I know with my Y3 that was not the case.  And why I skeptical about running these advanced electronic systems on DC is my Y3.  Some would say it runs on DC, but I would respond be, “well, sort of”.  It takes a lot of power to get through the electronics so it does not operate like a  normal DC engine, but yes it will move.  But not in an acceptable way for a DC layout.  It also has so many ‘quirks’ because of the electronics that it glitches most of the time… I just don’t use it that often.

Another thing I have seen discussed about the complexity of these systems is the space they take in an engine.  If you keep inventing new proprietary systems and then have to make the retro compatible with all the predecessor, the space requirements will only increase.  That seems like a waste of resources when the model railroad industry has been standardized on DC since who knows when and DCC standards have been accepted by all the major players… except for two in the toy train business.  And unfortunately, those two are the current best hope for S gauge (I know I should say ‘scale&rsquo, but they are so concerned about their own separate proprietary systems which they can’t fit into S size models that it effects their production.

I have no idea if there are more ‘traditional’ AC layouts than DC or DCC so I can’t be the judge of the market.  Only time will tell, I just hope it works out well for S in general.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

The PE is still scheduled for early 2015 I think. It's the new Berks that are projected for December.

By "new Berks" are we talking a new and improved version,or the PE with proto road names?

Mark in Oregon

Unless something changes over the course of between now and then, the "new" Berks are the PE Berks with a more prototypical pilot.

Rusty

Got it thanks,Rusty...

Mark in Oregon

Okay,

Just when I thought I understood proprietary compatible systems, it turns out they are not compatible with standard model railroad practices.  Or maybe not very, or sort of, or sometimes, if you are willing to compromise on what you might call compatible.

Will someone just come out and say the multiple systems that Lionel and MTH insist putting in everything they make are vestiges from the days of AC track power?  I am starting to be at a loss as to the necessity of these systems.  I know ACG Flyer will operate on DC – Is the problem that old Lionel won’t?  And why not?  A simple rectifier won’t do?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

With TMCC and presumably Legacy and DCS, the control system needs a series of voltage regulators (TRIACs) to vary the voltage going to the motor. These units do not work on DC, thus anything that has them in the circuit will not work on DC.

I've said this elsewhere, but I think the Flyer Berks are the best bargain in the 2015 catalogs. That appears to be a whole lot of train for under $300 street price.

J White

Old Postwar Lionel will run on DC, it's just the horn or whistle will sound constantly.  The mechanical E-unit will cycle which each power shut off.

The MTH and Lionel command control systems are a case of "my system's better that yours is."  Pure and simple. 

Lionel had it first and wasn't about to offer it to MTH, so MTH came up with their own system.  Only by an unintended consequence did Lionel make it possible for MTH to be able to interface their DCS system with the early TMCC system.

MTH had to incorporate DCC into DCS because of their HO products.  Lionel added DCC compatibility to Legacy by way of unusual cooperation with S Scalers.

TMCC/Legacy and DCS are well embedded in the O Gauge world and aren't going away anytime soon.  Lion/FlyerChief will also be around for quite a while...

Rusty

I saw the new S gauge Polar Express Berk at the Lionel booth of the Worlds Greatest Hobby booth in Louisville today.  I took a tape measure and it measured about 19 1/2" from coupler to elongated pilot.  I figure the versions with the prototypical pilots would be about 19 1/4" in length, which works out to be 102' 8" in S.  The prototype NKP S2 was around 101' long, so I figure the Flyer model is right on the money given the larger-than-scale spacing between the cab and tender needed to negotiate 40" dia Flyer curves.

Too many systems, too many different names for the same thing.  It seems like they have introduced craziness when they didn’t have to and now S is stuck with that legacy.

I guess it depends on when and how you got into S gauge in the first place.  I’d like to ask Bill and Mark how they started their S adventure.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Mark that is actually my point.  Yes, there are Fords and Chevy’s out there, however they all operate on the same system of roads and have pretty much the same functions (radios, 4 tires, etc.).  They even burn the same fuel.

Not so with proprietary systems.  So when you get your MTH DCS, how will that be integrated into your layout?  Will a simple toggle switch do?

Is Powermaster a normal transformer AC system?  How do you separate TMCC and the Powermaster?

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

But I bet a Ford computer module that controls the engine, brakes and transmission won't work in a Chevy...

Neither will the key.

Rusty

Exactly, like DCC, the internal operating system from different manufacturers is not at issue. What is is can you go from one to the other and still be able to operate it in the same manner on the same systems of roads and play the same stations on the different radios?

Tom

Oh, I don't know.  I can receive XM radio in my Elantra but not in my Escape.  At least not without buying extra hardware.

Kinda like buying TMCC hardware to interface with my DCS system...

Rusty

Confused by the conflicting opinions expressed in this thread about the ability of the planned AF Berkshire loco to run on DC, I contacted Lionel directly to get THE definitive answer. Here 'tis (in quotes):

"The 6-42562 can either be run conventionally with a transformer, or on a layout that has a fixed 18 Volts going to the track (either AC or DC). If running it in FlyerChief mode, the engine still requires the remote that comes with it in order for it to move and activate the features. If running it conventionally with a transformer, the features are activated by using the Whistle, Bell, directional control buttons on your transformer."

Lionel seemingly avoided answering my second question, which asked if the Berkshire would operate via DCC track power (specifically, the Digitrax Zephyr system).

If by "run conventionally with a transformer" means either an AC or a DC transformer, then Lionel answered the question. If Lionel means only an AC transformer, then the question is still unanswered.

Probably because they haven't tried it and are not likely to try it  given they seem to be backing away from the segment of S that uses DCC.

Being that FlyerChief+ is the spawn of LionChief+, which is 99.99% AC in the conventional operational world and the fact that under conventional AC operation, bells and whistles are activated by DC, the point would seem to be moot.

Rusty

Look at the Lionel catalog for AF and O.  It clearly says AC or DC for Lion Chief and Flyer Chief.  It says nothing about DCC.  It says that it will run on a track system that has Legacy or TMCC but these will not operate engines with this new control system.  DCC is a control system too so my guess is it will not control Flyer Chief engines.  That is logical.

Hi Tom,

I started in S Scale during the late seventies or early eighties, by coming from HO, first to Sn3, then to S Standard gauge. I got my first DCC system from Digitrax at the NMRA National Train Show in Valley Forge, which I think was in the summer of 1993. Along the way, I picked up a few AF pieces but I was never a big fan of AF because I liked scale models better than what was available from Gilbert or Lionel at the time. When S Helper came out with their models that were scale but had wheelsets and couplers that could be switched to operate on high-rail or scale track, I decided to go ahead and build my small S Scale layout using code 148 rail and Eshelmann closed frog turnouts so I could run either scale or HiRail equipment. To this day, I haven't tried to run any Gilbert AC-Powered locos, though I have run a couple of American Models HiRail DC locos that I bought second-hand at train shows. Most of my S gauge stuff is run using MRC ControlMaster II Power Packs, simply because I never got around to permanently hooking up a DCC system to the layout.

Now, regarding all the confusion concerning the FlyerChief Plus and LionChief Plus locos, remember that they use a separate wireless handheld Controller to operate in "Chief" mode, which requires a fixed voltage on the tracks at all times. The plain old "Chief" starter sets (not the Chief Plus) come with a fixed DC power supply, but they can also operated on a similar voltage of fixed AC, but they cannot be run without there wireless throttles. The advantage of the "Plus" versions of the Chief product lines is that they also have a conventional electronic E-unit built into their circuit boards, along with a slide switch switch to select "conventional" mode, allowing you to operate them using a traditional Gilbert or Lionel AC power pack (without using their wireless "Chief" throttle). I would expect that when switched into conventional mode, they would operate the same as any conventional Gilbert or Lionel loco equipped with an e-unit. Since the conventional horn/whistle or bell is operated by adding a (+) or (-) DC signal to the rail on top of the AC operating current, if you try to run using a DC variable voltage power pack, then either the horn/whistle or the bell would sound continuously depending on the setting of the DC polarity/reversing switch on the DC Power Pack. I don't think that you would be able to run in conventional mode using a DCC power source because DCC puts a fixed voltage on the rails, and uses the decoder on board the loco to meter out the voltage that gets to the motor, thus controlling the speed. I've never tried it, but I suspect a conventional AC loco placed on DCC track power would either sit there buzzing, or to take off at an uncontrollable speed in proportion to the fixed DCC voltage. However, if you place a FlyerChief plus loco (switched into "Chief" mode) on the DCC tracks, then it will run using it's wireless throttle, using the DCC voltage much the same as if it were on fixed AC or DC voltage.

One small detail, all transformers work on AC not DC. Your old Gilbert or Lionel AC power packs are generally just variable voltage AC transformers, while a typical DC power pack contains a transformer which drops the house current down from 110 VAC to 12-16 VAC, plus other circuitry. After the transformer lowers the voltage to a safe level, the current then gets rectified or converted into DC and is then fed into the electronic circuitry that varies the voltage to control the speed of your train. So, to be correct, if you operate using DC, your controller should be called a "power pack", rather than a "transformer" because it does a lot more than a simple transformer does.

Bill in FtL

Hi Bill,

An interesting write-up, thank you (and Mark) for posting how you entered this adventure.  I do have a question about the FlyerChief and running on DC, even though you did address it.

Lionel states:

“FlyerChief

This revolutionary new control system allows you to operate your FlyerChiefTM equipped locomotives on your layout using a remote control or via a conventional transformer. The FlyerChiefTM engines offer enhanced sound, long--‐distance control, AC/DC compatibility…”

What are we to make of this statement?  They sure say it is DC compatible, but what you said makes more sense.  Could this be another case of (as Ed L says) Lionel having their own set of definitions?

I know their conversion of the Y3 to DC is not what one would want from a $700.00 engine (I don’t remember what it really cost).  So is this true of all their ‘DC compatible claims’?

Inquiring minds want to know…

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Well, I have to ask; am I the only one who feels their statement about DC compatibility of the FlyerChief is a bit more than a stretch?  I have a DC powered layout and if I’m told an engine is DC compatible I would expect it to run on my layout… like any of the other engines.

Flyer Chief might be DC capable, maybe; but compatible, definitely not.

Bill, on a side note.  I use Kadee #5s and certainly plan on putting them on the Berk, if it ever come to fruition.  I am installing a #5 in the pilot of my Mikado this weekend.  It is giving me a bit of a challenge, but I think I am near.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Hi Tom,

Technically, you may be right grammatically, but I also think you are blowing things out of proportion here. Any DC layout can only control one train at a time in any given block, so if you buy a new DC only loco, then isn't it also incompatible with your DC layout in the sense that you can't run your other locos in the same block at the same time? With the Chief system, it is possible to set a conventional train in motion, letting it run around the layout on its own, and simultaneously run a "Chief" loco with full control (plus sound) on the same track. The Chief will run on lower than full track voltage, but on the lower voltages, the remote uncoupler coil may not have quite enough "oomph" to remotely uncouple.

Since the Chief's wireless controller/throttle comes supplied with the loco, needing to use it rather than your power pack's knob shouldn't be that much of an issue. Besides, since it is a wireless controller (something a typical DC Power Pack usually isn't), isn't it also a further advantage to have walk-around untethered control?

I suspect that if you try the FlyerChief system on your layout, you'll like it more than you think. The new MRC "Freedom One" remote control system is similar in concept, but I'm not sure MRC has figured it out yet, judging by their marketing program. It's reasonably priced, includes sound and though it's aimed at the HO market, I think it could be useful for S Scale as well, though at this time it's limited to only three frequencies in use at the same time.

Bill in FtL

I am not sure I'm in the market for this engine as it leaves a lot of detail to be desired, but at the price point it could be a fun project to gut it and install DCC/Sound. Since it has a fan driven smoke unit you should be able to control that too if you use a QSI Titan or LokSound decoder. You would have a fully functional DCC Berk with sound and smoke for under $400. Not too bad even if it isn't as nice as the old Flyonel Mikado and Pacific. Not that I need another project on my workbench...