FLYER CHIEF BERKSHIRES...NEW IMAGES

Looks good but still an artist's rendering.  I ordered a NPR so I am looking forward to the real deal.

So when are they supposed to arrive?

This image is the identical to the one in the latest AF catalog. Nothing new! As is frequently the case, one will have to wait and see what is finally delivered. Given the timing, we might see the Berks in final form at York in October.

 

The title of this thread should be changed to reflect reality.

 

Bob

The FC Berks are still scheduled for December 2015.

 

Rusty

This may be false hope...

 

I zoomed in on the Berk and noticed something:  The handrails may be separate pieces.

Notice the raised casting mount under the station locations, the cast in details seem to be present under the handrails and the break in the shadowline under the handrail. 

 

The handrails might, just might be replaceable, separate, possibly Delrin, pieces.

 

Of course, it could be just pixel magic or my meds haven't kicked in yet.

 

Rusty

Rusty,

 

Have you ever researched the Kennedy assassination?

 

Rich

I will say it again...These are an artists work and not a photo of the actual engine.  Lionel's Matt Ashba assured me that the solo Berks casting would be the same as the Polar Express. Some of you guys want the piping to be separately applied so bad you are using anything to make it so.  I am afraid your making your disappointment, when you get the real engine, even greater.  

Never said anything about the piping, just the handrails and I'm pretty much aware of Lionel's ability or lack of to provide an accurate rendering of their products...

 

One would think that by now the corporate photoshop "artists" would have an actual engineering model to work with by now.

 

I've never expected these things to be fully blown, fully detailed "scale" models so my expectations are on the low end of the dial anyways. 

 

If the handrails are just cast lumps of metal molded into the boiler, so be it.

 

Lionel has managed to provide greater disappointments in so many other ways.

 

Rusty

Folks,

 

Roundhouse Bill has it right.  The Four follow-on Berks, with exception of the extended pilot, are being built to the same production standard as the Polar Express Berk. The PE engine is scale proportioned and the boiler detail is cast-in with the exception of the gold colored bell on the front of the boiler and four gold colored pieces on top the loco near the cab.

 

We have had an S gauge Polar Express set here at the office for two weeks. It is the one that got such really heavy usage at the LCCA Convention last month. It is a delight to run and my initial verdict is Lionel got both the mechanicals and the sound right the first time. This is a good omen for the the running qualities of the four follow-on Berkshires and I am looking forward to receiving the two that I ordered.

 

The FlyerChief control system is easy to use and provides a great deal of functionality. It is so simple even an adult can run it.

 

We just finished an article for the LCCA journal, The Lion Roars, on the S gauge FlyerChief set, and in it my partner, Rich Melvin, reveals the secret behind an accurate paint job for a Berkshire.  Since he is one of the engineers on the 765, his views are pretty solid on the subject.

 

Looking at the casting of the PE Berk, it looks like it would not be too hard for Lionel to build a more detailed ( higher priced) model of the Berkshire if demand warranted it.

 

Ed Boyle

Partner

Special Projects editor

O Gauge Railroading magazine

 

 

 

Ed Boyle, thanks for your information.  I got an early Polar Express set too so I could write a review for the S Gaugian.  I was very pleased with the set overall, but found you couldn't use all of the Berk's features in the transformer only mode.  Also a number of the wires came unsoldered from the trucks of the passenger cars that provide power to the car's lights.  Did you observe these issues?

 

Thanks  

These are about 2 weeks away

Roundhouse Bill,

 

I did not have any problems with the wiring for the S gauge PE passenger cars, but I thought that having just one bulb to light them was not optimal and a little old fashioned conceptually.

 

The heavy metal trucks help the three cars to track well behind the PE Berkshire.

Looking forward to getting my own set, although the one I am using is nicely broken in.

 

Ed Boyle

I think he's referring to the Polar Express set being close to delivery, not the separate sale Berkshire locomotives.  The Lionel shipping schedule page says the S gauge PE set is due to be delivered in September.  Based on past history, I wouldn't expect the Berkshire locomotives to arrive until the middle of next year.

That is correct Scott. The set is what we have the most orders for. When I was at Lionel a few months ago I saw and handled a production piece along with the cars. It should be a great seller.

 

Call it false hope if you want, but I would call it obvious deception on Lionel's part. I ordered first one (NKP), and then a week later, a second (C&O) Berkshire (and paid a deposit on both) when the prices were first announced, based on the early catalog illustrations which showed the handrails to be silver, indicating they were separate attachments, along with text stating that there would be different detailing pieces from the PE for the individual locos. This was further reinforced by the fact that almost all previous American Flyer steam locos (both Gilbert and Flyonel) had come with separate handrails. A few days after I sent in my deposits, Lionel published a new illustration showing the handrails to be cast-on rather than separately added pieces, and looked more like catwalks than handrails. When I immediately called the dealer (who is a sponsor on this forum) to see if I could cancel the second unit and apply it's deposit amount to the first piece, since Lionel had made the changes after-the-fact, I was told that I would forfeit any deposit if I cancelled the second unit. This was well before any deadlines had passed, and there was still time for the dealer to amend his order with Lionel. I didn't cancel at that time, since there was no advantage for me by doing so, but now that I'm seeing that Lionel has doctored their illustrations to intentionally be deceptive about the handrails, it makes me less inclined to buy any Lionel products in the future, including either of the Berkshires, and you can bet I won't be placing any pre-orders with either Lionel or the dealer who is holding my deposits. This is from someone who has a LionChief Plus Mikado, and loves it!

 

And, if the product doesn't ship on time, it will just be another default in the original sales obligation by both Lionel and that dealer.

 

Bill in FtL

Bill in FtL..... Lionel never implied these Berks were going to have wire handrails in any written descriptions of the product.  These artists drawings are just representations of the finished engine and notice how these have been magnified to illustrate the railings. All the discussions on this site about them being there were not based on Lionel descriptions, but hoped for by many who wrote here.  I think Lionel tries to be honest to its market.

I have a production model of the Polar Express early because I write for S Gaugian magazine.  I really like the Berk because it is scale sized and operates very well.  The cast in detail is very good and the price fair.  I think you will be happy once you get them and try them using their FlyerChief.

Looks like a raised molded in handrail to me.

They didn't have to imply wire hand rails... they showed us add-on wire handrails...

However, a picture is worth 1,000 words…  and these words are truly deceptive.  From the original ad with the silver handrails to the redrawn one Rusty gave us (with different handrails, but still clearly add-on).  Lionel had plenty of chance to correct a ‘mistake’, but they choose not to.  I believe it is often called ‘bait and switch’.  Not sure of the legality of it, I’ll leave that for someone else to tackle.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

 

Guys,

 

If you contact Lionel, I'm sure the usual disclaimer will apply:

 

Now, the proof will be in the product.  I'm going to hold my position that the handrails MAY be removable with no harm to the boiler.  I won't be able to verify my theory until I can actually hold one in my hot little hands. 

 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  Wouldn't be the first time.  You can ask my mom. 

 

If that's the case, I won't be doing much with the version I have on order other than get a feel for FlyerChief and maybe run it around the Christmas tree.  I wasn't intending on loading up on any future FlyerChief offerings anyway.

 

Rusty

The sample of the Polar Express Berk that was shown to one and all last York had cast-in handrails.

 

Bob

Bob,

The four Berks coming are also going to have caste-in details. The good news is the Polar Express version runs very well, seems to be sturdily made, FlyerChief is easy and fun to run and the price point is livable for most of us. 

 

Would it be nice to have separately applied piping? Yes.  I wish they would have done it, but the locomotive I tested is satisfying on most other counts.  Most important, Lionel got it right the first time.

 

Ed Boyle

 

Yes, Ed, I know ... and ah, there's the rub. Not quite right. Wire hand rails and Legacy on the four Berks would be greatly preferred here. I recently took delivery of one of the new D&H PA sets. Traditional Gilbert updated beautifully with the latest goodies. Separately applied handrails would greatly enhance to the looks of the Berks and I have little interest in fumbling around with another handheld. 

 

Enjoy your Berks.

 

Bob

Bob,

I am well aware that you knew the four Berks are going to have cast-in handrails.  My remarks were aimed at a broader audience of folks and to back up your initial comments.

 

Would love to have the Berks with Legacy and separately applied details.  How about a deluxe version?

 

Ed Boyle

Look at the O gauge premium Berks in the 2014 catalog page 20.  Legacy and scale for $1,499.99.  Build to order too.

My guess that one in S would be over a Grand.  That is to Grand for me.  People want to get all the goodies, but don't want to pay what Lionel has to sell them for.

I would be happy to pay EXCATLY the same for S SCALE products as they charge for O. I know I am in the minority here though. I just paid a healthy chunk for a 30 year old brass engine that is so fragile it falls apart if you look at it wrong. I'd much rather have robust die-cast modern products. I like the size of S better than O and I was willing to pay for O so why wouldn't I pay for S? The problem is that your average Flyer modeler doesn't feel the same way. AND there just aren't that many in S to start with. Which is why I made the comment about 4 years ago that they would need to draw people in from other scales if they were going to be successful in the long run.

 

I don't like toy-like Flyer much so none of what Lionel is doing now interests me. I highly doubt that new/younger modelers are going to choose S Flyer in lieu of HO or N so my feeling is that this market will eventually fizzle through attrition. I do think that S scale could draw "scale" modelers in from other scales. Look at Proto:48. It has been growing for years as traditional O5W shrinks. S scale could be every bit as good and better, because it takes less space. Lionel made some moves in S scale but when the new sheriff came to town he had a different idea of what Lionel should do in S apparently.

 

I would gladly pay $1500 for an S scale steam engine with all of the features. I won't pay $250 for these AF Berkshires.

 

Just my opinion of course.

I had an interesting conversation with an O Gauge gentleman near the Charles Ro Lionel S product display last York. He was admiring the ES44AC, SD70 and Y3 S gauge Legacy locomotives and said that he was thinking of selling his O gauge trains and perhaps trying S because he was downsizing and moving to a smaller living space. HO or N too small for him. I told him he could use his Legacy/TMCC controllers with the S gauge Legacy locomotives, same system. That really got him thinking! Just sayin', might be a few more converts in this demographic.

 

There is another thread on declining prices with folks(younger?) saying how much they like the new products vs. vintage. Not surprising with smart phones, etc. that younger people would expect bells and whistles with their trains. I hope Lionel will continue down the Legacy path in S gauge.

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...g-price-drops?page=1

 

Mike

Yes!

 

Bob

Well, I'm pretty pleased with what I am going to get for my money, when I get my BERK.  

 

If I play with my favorite tool, the consumer price index inflation calculator(http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl , the MSRP  for the Berk in 2015  dollars is $350 which is $42.37 in 1958 dollars.   The "Charles Ro Preorder Price" is $295.00 which is $35.73 in 1958 dollars.

 

In 1958 the MSRP for a AF 4-8-4 was $47.00, $44.00 for a AF 4-6-4.and $39.35 for a AF New Haven Style Pacific.  

 

I am comfortable with this price point.  

 

Like Ricky Nelson sang, "You can't please everyone . . . " 

https://youtu.be/uAHR7_VZdRw

 

LittleTommy

 

Well, Bill, the current S Berk with just Legacy and wire handrails (one requires the antennae) would go for around ~ $600. Note the M.S.R.P. of the new PAs. I'd be willing to accept that compromise. However, I wouldn't mind seeing something still further upscale (so to speak  in the future. Ed appears to be thinking along these lines, too.

 

Bob