Fried Fastrack terminal section - Why?!?

Loose connection with a high load on track.

The voltage applied was maybe only 10-12v. The Fastrak plug type connector is pretty positive - I can't imagine it would arc and melt the plastic. This had to have been a long process of heating. Why would the Z-400's circuit breaker have not prevented this? 

The only other scenario I can imagine is that I was previously running 7  70 foot standards and two express boxes behind my childhood 1954 vintage F-3s. They take 21v and draw a lot of amps. Ran it for maybe 20 or more minutes. Wonder if that train did it and then the shorting out by the mike was the final straw?

Gentlemen,

  As usual Rob is correct, 99% of the time's a bad loose connect.

PCRR/Dave

Hi Everyone:  I recently watched a little movie on a problem with Fastrack that I did not know existed until this film.  For some reason, some of the connector pins in various pieces of Fastrack are not shinny metal, they are dull pot metal and they cannot be bent or they snap and break apart.  The only way to fix the problem is to sacrifice a scrap piece of Fastrack that has the shinny metal pins in them.  You can easily take the pins out of those not used pieces of Fastrack by prying up the tabs and gently straightening the  tabs with a needle nose plier.  You do not have to bend all of the tabs, just about 4 or 5.  Gently pull up the track section and get the pins out of it.  You can gently bend the center and outside Fastrack Rail Pins that are shinny.  Unfortunately, LIONEL does not sell those track pins as a spare part for Fastrack.  Another thing I noticed about Fastrack, there was a change in the molding of Fastrack because the early pieces I bought have little pin holes on the under neath side of the plastic and the later ones have little squares.  I can only guess why the shinny metal pins were changed to pot metal as pot metal is cheaper but you cannot bend it....oh well, such is the life of Lionel Fastrack......railbear601  

Griff Murphey posted:

The only other scenario I can imagine is that I was previously running 7  70 foot standards and two express boxes behind my childhood 1954 vintage F-3s. They take 21v and draw a lot of amps. Ran it for maybe 20 or more minutes. Wonder if that train did it and then the shorting out by the mike was the final straw?

The vintage train with pulmor motors and a small gauge wire - what gauge is that wire? The almost 18 , maybe 20awg that is included with the track?

You had to apply a high voltage to compensate for the inability of the wire to carry the necessary amperage.(current)

it was not a short for the breaker to react and the amperage had not exceeded the capacity of the transformer - the Z-4000 did what it was supposed to do - supply plenty of power

Use a 16 or 14 awg feeder wire the next time.

It looks pretty thick to me. Maybe it's just the picture. I'm guessing he's using 14  or 16 AWG.

I would also say that those crimps could be suspect.  I prefer when using these to add some solder.  I agree with Carl though, the pulmor motors probably didn't help.

Four pulmor motors and seven lighted cars = 9amps?

Train Nut posted:

It looks pretty thick to me. Maybe it's just the picture. I'm guessing he's using 14  or 16 AWG.

Nope, that's the red and blank shrink of the factory leads.

Just to clarify, that's one powered vintage F-3 and one dummy.

The wire is the factory stuff with the slip on plugs that Lionel sells. My Fastrack is all about 8 years old. I think you have a point about the gauge of the wire being too small, I think I will solder a heavier gauge wire to the tabs for next year's layout. 

Do you think it's ok to use this section of track as a normal straight if not a terminal? I am thinking yes.

It'll be fine. Just remove the burnt wires.

Griff Murphey posted:

...The wire is the factory stuff with the slip on plugs that Lionel sells...

There's your problem right there... and to compound the issue, this was likely the only track power connection, right?

ADCX Rob posted:

Griff Murphey posted:

...The wire is the factory stuff with the slip on plugs that Lionel sells...

There's your problem right there... and to compound the issue, this was likely the only track power connection, right?

Exactly what I was thinking.   I use SOME of them on my fastrack.  Along with maybe 10 others of heavier wire on a 6x12 loop. 

Jim

Loose connections = high resistance = higher load = increased current draw = heat = melted wire insulation and surrounding plastic things. ALSO I suspect that Fast Track isn't suited for the Vintage O Gauge Locomotion.  I very rarely see my local train shop put the older equipment on Fast Track to test it out. They put on Atlas Track. 

Noah posted:

 ALSO I suspect that Fast Track isn't suited for the Vintage O Gauge Locomotion.  I very rarely see my local train shop put the older equipment on Fast Track to test it out. They put on Atlas Track. 

 

Fastrack is fine when properly wired for the load.

You are correct it is the only track connection although there are a couple of jumpers they are track to track in two problem areas and not connected to the transformer.

Never a problem with the 736 Berkshire but I guess the F3 did it. I put it on because it needed more annual exercise to blow out the cobwebs and the guest children did not like the smoke the Berk was making. I was pretty much running it just off full bore power.

Thanks to all of you Genelmuns! Next year I will go to soldered connections and bigger wire and will run a lighter train for the old AA F-3 lashup! It was hauling a 5 car mth Pullman set, My Santa Fe talking diner, a Weaver ATSF RPO and two Express boxes.

Griff Murphey posted:

You are correct it is the only track connection although there are a couple of jumpers they are track to track in two problem areas and not connected to the transformer.

Never a problem with the 736 Berkshire but I guess the F3 did it. I put it on because it needed more annual exercise to blow out the cobwebs and the guest children did not like the smoke the Berk was making. I was pretty much running it just off full bore power.

Thanks to all of you Genelmuns! Next year I will go to soldered connections and bigger wire and will run a lighter train for the old AA F-3 lashup! It was hauling a 5 car mth Pullman set, My Santa Fe talking diner, a Weaver ATSF RPO and two Express boxes.

How long was the wire from the Fastrack to the Z4K?  Just the standard foot or so that comes with it? 

Yes the transformer is in the corner and I operate it from a folding chair. Wires are fairly short.

Volphin posted:

Griff Murphey posted:

You are correct it is the only track connection although there are a couple of jumpers they are track to track in two problem areas and not connected to the transformer.

Never a problem with the 736 Berkshire but I guess the F3 did it. I put it on because it needed more annual exercise to blow out the cobwebs and the guest children did not like the smoke the Berk was making. I was pretty much running it just off full bore power.

Thanks to all of you Genelmuns! Next year I will go to soldered connections and bigger wire and will run a lighter train for the old AA F-3 lashup! It was hauling a 5 car mth Pullman set, My Santa Fe talking diner, a Weaver ATSF RPO and two Express boxes.

How long was the wire from the Fastrack to the Z4K?  Just the standard foot or so that comes with it? 

Volphin has a point.  I had a similar incident as Griff's a couple of years ago on my Fastrack Christmas layout.  I had spliced a length of heavier wire to the end of the Lionel provided wire so I could have the transformer off to the side.  I can't remember if I had my Z4000 yet, or if I was using my ZW with circuit breakers and diode protection.  Anyway, all I can figure is I was pulling too much current through that wire.  I did not have a burn on the connector, but I did melt the insulation off the factory provided wire.  I had one connection to the loop at the time.  Now I have heavier gauge wire and two connections.

Griff Murphey posted:

Yes the transformer is in the corner and I operate it from a folding chair. Wires are fairly short.

Well, as I was writing, I see you answered that question.  

Mark Boyce posted:

Volphin posted:

Griff Murphey posted:

You are correct it is the only track connection although there are a couple of jumpers they are track to track in two problem areas and not connected to the transformer.

How long was the wire from the Fastrack to the Z4K?  Just the standard foot or so that comes with it? 

Volphin has a point.  I had a similar incident as Griff's a couple of years ago on my Fastrack Christmas layout.  I had spliced a length of heavier wire to the end of the Lionel provided wire so I could have the transformer off to the side.  I can't remember if I had my Z4000 yet, or if I was using my ZW with circuit breakers and diode protection.  Anyway, all I can figure is I was pulling too much current through that wire.  I did not have a burn on the connector, but I did melt the insulation off the factory provided wire.  I had one connection to the loop at the time.  Now I have heavier gauge wire and two connections.

Yikes! That's how we used to launch Estes rockets, the sacrificial nichrome wire glows and ignites the propellant. Glad to hear you didn't suffer any other harm. Going to add new terminals with thicker wires to our test loop today.

Grampstrains posted:

MartyE posted:

Noah posted:

 ALSO I suspect that Fast Track isn't suited for the Vintage O Gauge Locomotion.  I very rarely see my local train shop put the older equipment on Fast Track to test it out. They put on Atlas Track. 

 

Fastrack is fine when properly wired for the load.

I run my postwar trains on Fastrack all the time.  No problems.

I'll concur here.     I have pre-war, post war, MPC, then modern era TMCC/Legacy and DCS all running on Fasttrack

BobbyD posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Volphin posted:

Griff Murphey posted:

You are correct it is the only track connection although there are a couple of jumpers they are track to track in two problem areas and not connected to the transformer.

How long was the wire from the Fastrack to the Z4K?  Just the standard foot or so that comes with it? 

Volphin has a point.  I had a similar incident as Griff's a couple of years ago on my Fastrack Christmas layout.  I had spliced a length of heavier wire to the end of the Lionel provided wire so I could have the transformer off to the side.  I can't remember if I had my Z4000 yet, or if I was using my ZW with circuit breakers and diode protection.  Anyway, all I can figure is I was pulling too much current through that wire.  I did not have a burn on the connector, but I did melt the insulation off the factory provided wire.  I had one connection to the loop at the time.  Now I have heavier gauge wire and two connections.

Yikes! That's how we used to launch Estes rockets, the sacrificial nichrome wire glows and ignites the propellant. Glad to hear you didn't suffer any other harm. Going to add new terminals with thicker wires to our test loop today.

Ahhh the good old days when my friends an I would take a tiny Estes rocket and put an "E" motor in it.

Then there's the time the Saturn V didn't launch right, went horizontal, and chased us....  Good times

I agree that the terminal wire is small, but it appears that all the heat was at the connection. My experience is that the .110 connectors are never as tight as the first time they are used. If I use them again I always give them a pinch if they don't slide on hard. That terminal section is way over priced anyway. You can do the same thing with any full section of Fastrack and your own wire. It's right up there with the four packs of track that cost more than buying four individually, but I digress. When properly connected, there is no problem running new or old trains on Fastrack.

Griff Murphey posted:

You are correct it is the only track connection although there are a couple of jumpers they are track to track in two problem areas and not connected to the transformer.

Add more power feeders. I would suggest at least two feeders your 060 loop and two on your 042 loop. A good rule of thumb is one feeder for every six track joints.

Most of the FasTrack track sections have the connecting terminals on them. I would suggest 16 ga minimum. A roll of speaker wire will work fine for a temporary layout. The 0.110 crimp on connectors are cheap and easy to install.

FWIW the Lionel wire is 18 ga. Had it indeed been a short circuit, the Z4K circuit breaker would have (very quickly) tripped.

John H posted:

I agree that the terminal wire is small, but it appears that all the heat was at the connection. My experience is that the .110 connectors are never as tight as the first time they are used. If I use them again I always give them a pinch if they don't slide on hard. That terminal section is way over priced anyway. You can do the same thing with any full section of Fastrack and your own wire. It's right up there with the four packs of track that cost more than buying four individually, but I digress. When properly connected, there is no problem running new or old trains on Fastrack.

.110 is the wrong connector.  For a more secure connection, solder in female .080 connectors.  They spread just enough on installation and stay tight.  The gap in the connector should be on the same side as the dimple on the spade.  

Griff, I'm in the middle of soldering a bunch of new feeders for our club electrical buss.  If you PM or email me your address, I'll make you up a new terminal feed out of heavier gauge wire, as long as you like and mail it to you.  Consider it a gift for your service.    Navy families stick together.  

If you solder, why use a connector? Having the dimple on the flat side improves contact by tightening it up.

Soldering to FasTrack will definitely result in melted plastic.

 I've soldered Fastrack many times and never had a problem with melting unless I put the iron on a little too high or a little too long. That's soldering on the bottom. I don't solder on the top to the sides of the Rails.

Here's I have done.   I assemble feeders for Fastrack, about a foot long.  I then add a quick disconnect to it.

The feeders are soldered to the tabs under the track.    Then I just have to attach the drop to the feeders via the disconnects I use.   Perfect for carpet central, and lets me redo the carpet layout as many times as I desire, without loosening the connection under the track.

For my permanent layout, the feeders are all run terminal strips under neath, and again soldered to the tabs underneath.

I have yet to melt Fastrack when soldering

Haven't had an issue in 9 years of doing it this way.

Volphin posted:

Griff, I'm in the middle of soldering a bunch of new feeders for our club electrical buss.  If you PM or email me your address, I'll make you up a new terminal feed out of heavier gauge wire, as long as you like and mail it to you.  Consider it a gift for your service.    Navy families stick together.  

Very nice. I post under my own name, Griffin T. Murphey, DDS and you can easily google my office address/phone in Fort Worth. Give me a call during working hours and we can have a good Navy gabfest! I'll take a 24" one and a 12 foot one!

I run several pullmor engines on my layout. They are power hogs so all my power feeder wires are 14 gauge. Overkill? Probably, but they handle the load of a postwar horizontal motor F3, 3 dummy F3s, 6 2500 series aluminium passenger cars, and the power from a postwar ZW without issue.

I really appreciate all of the replies and suggestions. Lots of good ideas. My carpet empire is in a good size living room and the oval footprint in in an areas 15x20 feet. I would guess the main line is at least 55-60 feet in length. Next year I will be incorporating better connections and more and better leads of thicker wire (less resistance). I am a pretty good hand at soldering and no problem soldering to the underside tabs and yes, I did know every Fastrack section has the tabs. My Christmas layout at my office is much smaller and my terminal to my old childhood KW is actually soldered to an O-36 curve section.

Again, thanks to all, my urologist friend Mike just repaired my 675 and brought it by my office, when I showed him that burned up terminal strip, he said: "THAT needs an autopsy!"

John H posted:

If you solder, why use a connector? Having the dimple on the flat side improves contact by tightening it up.

The short answer is the inevitable track maintenance.  .110 connectors are too loosey goosey for my taste.  If you try the brass .080 you will see.    I crimp the feeder into the connector then flow solder into the connection.  (These connectors do not have the plastic base).  You just have to keep the solder away from the female spade end and just where the wire crimps.  Goes on right, holds tight.  NEVER had one loosen up since I changed.  

You can shinny up a tree to get a shiny apple, but you cannot shiny up a tree to get a shinny apple.

I had this happen in fact it looks exactly like mine did. It happened on my Polar Express Set. I was using it as it comes from the box, locomotive, tender three cars. The track and CD 80 transformer.

It was in its third year of around the Christmas tree duty.

I figured out the problem. Nothing other than just a little play on the connector where it attaches to the track.

I now make sure the connections are tight. It has been more than 5 years and even my PW F3's and 6 lighted passenger cars have never as much made this connection war. In addition I now run a Z 1000 transformer on this combination.

ADCX Rob posted:

Soldering to FasTrack will definitely result in melted plastic.

False.  

A 25w weller iron will solder to the fastrack tabs in seconds and not touch the roadbed.

Need to make a change? Touch the iron to the solder for a few seconds will release the wire.

14 GA soldered directly to the tabs is supeior to any slip on connector when it comes to conductivity, period.

I used 14 Ga buss with14GA feeder wires about every 10'. No issues, no heat, no melting and no voltage drops. A constant 17 volts at any point on my 12'x16' layout.

Don't skimp, wiring is the most important thing to the trackwork when it comes to trouble free running.

Volphin posted:

John H posted:

If you solder, why use a connector? Having the dimple on the flat side improves contact by tightening it up.

The short answer is the inevitable track maintenance.  .110 connectors are too loosey goosey for my taste.  If you try the brass .080 you will see.    I crimp the feeder into the connector then flow solder into the connection.  (These connectors do not have the plastic base).  You just have to keep the solder away from the female spade end and just where the wire crimps.  Goes on right, holds tight.  NEVER had one loosen up since I changed.  

28-6082 - .080 Female Disconnect. MCM Electronics dot com

 

 

  Hi Volphin, on the above 28-6082, what is the maximum gauge wire that you can crimp into the connector?

Thanks!