Frustrated With Whistle

Did you try blowing into the opening on the backplate? If the whistle doesn't sound then you have one or more of the following:

Clogged chamber, leaky cover, or obstructed openings

Mistakenly wired so the motor is running backwards? Impeller loose on shaft?

C W Burfle posted:

Did you try blowing into the opening on the backplate? If the whistle doesn't sound then you have one or more of the following:

Clogged chamber, leaky cover, or obstructed openings

 

C.W. when I blow in the back nothing happens. I had the backplate off and thoroughly cleaned the chambers. The openings are unobstructed, and  after I reattached the backplate I sealed it with Sugru putty cement to eliminate air loss.

Chuck Sartor posted:

Mistakenly wired so the motor is running backwards? Impeller loose on shaft?

Here is the wiring layout, Chuck:

C.W. when I blow in the back nothing happens. I had the backplate off and thoroughly cleaned the chambers. The openings are unobstructed, and  after I reattached the backplate I sealed it with Sugru putty cement to eliminate air loss.

Any putty cement in the rectangular openings?

If it won't produce sound when you blow into it, it will not produce sound when running.

Looks like your wiring is correct. Can you make a short video of it operating. It sounds like a air leak now, but if the back side is sealed, I'm not sure where.

If blowing in it won't "toot" it, I think the reed alignment might be bad from agressive cleaning

 Feel the airflow amount from the reed port. Direction o.k.? Is the impeller close enough to the intake, a hair gap is needed, too much and chamber air is spun vs a draw from outside.

Does the whistle chime then "tweet out" (too much air) or never chimes? Never? Try to cover a small portion of the port with finger/tape (try the short length then along the high side of the port (non beveled). Reducing the port size reduces air needs. If changing the port size doesn't give sound, I'd have to think the reed's beveled angle was filed on or something.

To rule out a weak rpm motor & lungs both, try a vacuum's blower

Chuck Sartor posted:

Looks like your wiring is correct. Can you make a short video of it operating. It sounds like a air leak now, but if the back side is sealed, I'm not sure where.

Sure. Here is the video, Chuck:

Definitely what my dad would call a conundrum! HOPE you figure it out! :-)

did you take the impeller off of the armature & put it back upside down. just grasping at straws

gptom posted:

did you take the impeller off of the armature & put it back upside down. just grasping at straws

Nope.

In addition to external air leaks, I think internal passage to passage leaks can also impact the operation of the whistle. You might want to take the rear cover off again and start with a new fresh gasket. Then be sure all the pins get pressed back in with even pressure to avoid any leaks, internal and external. I prefer the earlier screw on covers. Much easier to get uniform pressure. 

David Johnston posted:

In addition to external air leaks, I think internal passage to passage leaks can also impact the operation of the whistle. You might want to take the rear cover off again and start with a new fresh gasket. Then be sure all the pins get pressed back in with even pressure to avoid any leaks, internal and external. I prefer the earlier screw on covers. Much easier to get uniform pressure. 

Thanks, David! I did replace the gasket with a fresh one. The trouble with the pins is that some go back in too easily (and fall out again easily) while others require a jackhammer to re-seat. This whistle does not have threaded grooves to seat screws instead of the pins.I wish it did!

hcsader when on track testing and looking from the brushplate side testing it make sure the motor is spinning counter clockwise . That is a must and if it is spinning clockwise it will spin and spin making no noise.

How do i know is because i have serviced some of the many i have and resoldered the wire wrong and i called myself names after looking in Greenbergs operating manual in the tender section and realized motor was spinning the wrong way .

It did sound just like yours in your video.

The wiring looks correct. Must be a air leak. Try running a bead of thick superglue around the edges of the main casting, gasket, and back plate, on each side at a time and fallow with a shot of spray accelerator to seal the unit. 

The wiring does look correct thats what i had thought on mine regardless see if it is running counter clock wise if so like Chuck said look at the seal for air leaks or reseal.

One other thing check the solder joints or remelt them to make sure there good as well.

One other thing i read in the manual is the impeller slipping on its shaft but never have experienced that in all the years with tenders.

The impeller is tight to the spindle and spinning well, but the air must not be going through the whistle chambers. There is no external air loss. I sealed every metal seam with Sugru. So the air loss must be internal, but where? I put in a new bearing and a new ball bearing (WS-106 and WS-107). Could the ball bearing seated inside the bearing against the armature spindle be pushing the impeller too far towards the brushplate? Isn't the ball a design necessity?

Dieseler posted:

hcsader when on track testing and looking from the brushplate side testing it make sure the motor is spinning counter clockwise . That is a must and if it is spinning clockwise it will spin and spin making no noise.

How do i know is because i have serviced some of the many i have and resoldered the wire wrong and i called myself names after looking in Greenbergs operating manual in the tender section and realized motor was spinning the wrong way .

It did sound just like yours in your video.

 

Thanks Dieseler. Which wires do I reverse to reverse test the armature spin?

You will need to straighten the front truck, too. I still say you ( the whistle,that is ) are leaking at the seams. Once the factory seal is broken by taking the back plate off, it is very difficult to reseal, as the pins that hold the back cover on are all pressed in at the same time by a jig at the factory.

Hcsader CW is correct after i saw your 2nd picture of wiring.

If you want to see if motor spins as it should counter clockwise it is easier to put back on track activate whistle and observe from the top which way the armature is spinning. If whistle button is near you to otherwise  just apply 12 volts to track and push up on relay plate using toothpick or with finger gently push down on the little tab located on the bottom in the back of the relay it will then activate.

Also i believe CW is correct and since wires are correct its probably still leaking air.

So the air loss must be internal, but where

There are "walls" inside partitioning off the the required chambers.
I've cut my own gaskets using blotter paper (is it still available?)
And I am fairly certain I've seen reproduction gaskets (try Train Tender)
I have never used a putty or other sealant. I also wonder whether you have excess sealant inside that has altered the characteristics of the chambers and passages, killing the sound.

 

C W Burfle posted:

So the air loss must be internal, but where

There are "walls" inside partitioning off the the required chambers.
I've cut my own gaskets using blotter paper (is it still available?)
And I am fairly certain I've seen reproduction gaskets (try Train Tender)
I have never used a putty or other sealant. I also wonder whether you have excess sealant inside that has altered the characteristics of the chambers and passages, killing the sound.

 

Good points, C.W.!   I did indeed replace the gasket with a new one from Train Tender. The sealant was applied in small amounts externally  after (obviously) the backplate was secured. Applying the sealant has not altered the problem one bit.

I will take a look at the armature rotation direction. If it is spinning clockwise, then I will disassemble the bugger and start again from scratch. But by gum that whistle is gonna sound if I have to stick a bird inside it with electrodes on its behind.

HCSader73 posted:

C W Burfle posted:

So the air loss must be internal, but where

There are "walls" inside partitioning off the the required chambers.
I've cut my own gaskets using blotter paper (is it still available?)
And I am fairly certain I've seen reproduction gaskets (try Train Tender)
I have never used a putty or other sealant. I also wonder whether you have excess sealant inside that has altered the characteristics of the chambers and passages, killing the sound.

 

Good points, C.W.!   I did indeed replace the gasket with a new one from Train Tender. The sealant was applied in small amounts externally  after (obviously) the backplate was secured. Applying the sealant has not altered the problem one bit.

I will take a look at the armature rotation direction. If it is spinning clockwise, then I will disassemble the bugger and start again from scratch. But by gum that whistle is gonna sound if I have to stick a bird inside it with electrodes on its behind.

  Great idea...

From the looks of the wiring it should be spinning in proper direction but would check anyways .Some years back bought a tender off the bay and it did similar to yours as armature spun well after cleaning the brushes and commutator only to find a piece of tissue stuffed in the sound box .

It was probably stuffed in there by a child long ago as we sometimes forget these were played with by children mostly.

Surely you cleaned the brushes to remove any residue and cleaned the armature commutator plate so it will spin fast enough to generate sound only thing left would be that sound box  as CW mentioned.

At this juncture, and with my OCD, I would be SO frustrated, I would toss the whistle mechanism (minus the relay which obviously works) and purchase a restored motor/whistle from a reputable dealer like Hennings! You went the commendable "extra mile" and should have no regrets! :-)

Dieseler posted:

From the looks of the wiring it should be spinning in proper direction but would check anyways .Some years back bought a tender off the bay and it did similar to yours as armature spun well after cleaning the brushes and commutator only to find a piece of tissue stuffed in the sound box .

It was probably stuffed in there by a child long ago as we sometimes forget these were played with by children mostly.

Surely you cleaned the brushes to remove any residue and cleaned the armature commutator plate so it will spin fast enough to generate sound only thing left would be that sound box  as CW mentioned.

Yup, Dieseler, it is spinning counter clockwise, so it has to be an internal alignment issue with internal air leaks. 

Time to take it all apart and start over. At least it isn’t rusty any more

You are making more work than needed. Just take my advise from above thread. No such thing as a internal air leak.

HCSADER73

for the sake of try it why not just remove motor assembly suck in full air into lungs and blow into air chamber if it sounds off look for issues elsewhere if no sound then pull it apart.

you say some pins are loose as in drops in easily? if so that might be the entire issue  where the plate is not sealed allowing air to go where ever it wants to. I would try disassembly of air chamber and use sealer again re-install pins and use a clamp and snug plate to air chamber and let it sit overnight. worth a try at this point nothing to lose and everything to gain I have used auto silicone gasket sealer with good results and you can still take it apart if needed.

you must be a taurus as bulls never give up!

out of curiosity can't the holes that pins go into be tapped for a screw?

for the sake of try it why not just remove motor assembly suck in full air into lungs and blow into air chamber if it sounds off look for issues elsewhere if no sound then pull it apart.

Why remove the motor assembly?

C W BURFLE was thinking it had to come off to test my Idea am assuming I kinda sorta goofed.

anyone else notice the picture showing top view of whistle chamber plate is bent upwards if same inside to internal seal this might be cause of no whistle sound? 

just thinking out of the box as that plate should be straight and smooth all the way around including the internal surfaces

  I think an internal leak would need to be a big one that allowed a reversed airflow direction across the reed port.

  If air is flowing out of the port, correct direction, and it is enough air, the reed port is the issue. Mess with the side of the opening with a card or something. You need to adjust your mouth to whistle based on how much air you blow too A smaller port(blocked) will accelerate the flow and change pitch, but you have to start the sound before you can tune it.

Know anyone who plays clarinette, flute, etc?  Ask them their opinion on reed adjustment