Future AF Suggestions

Well, I talked with Lionel at the April York and wrote an article about the interview for the S Gaugian for the July/August edition.  Here it is in case you would like to see what I was told.  (Some of the spacing and numbering was lost in the copy and paste)

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1. 2015 Catalog Questions
   1. You show the passenger cars for the D&H and SP in the 2015 catalog, but not the diesels for them that were in the 2014 catalog.  I am told dealers have been informed that there are no more engines available to order.  What meaning does this have for buyers?

Based on customer feedback, Lionel added passenger cars to support the D&H and SP locos after the ALCo PA’s were catalogued.  Both the PA’s and the passenger cars are due to ship in the spring/summer of 2015. Hopefully those who didn’t originally put in an order for one of those PA’s are still able to locate one from a dealer or the second hand market as I don’t forsee extra engines to be available at Lionel’s end.

1. Will the Berkshires in the 2015 catalog be different than the Polar Express Berkshire in any way other than the elongated cow catcher and engine headlight?

We’re very excited about the release of this engine not only in the Polar Express decoration but also in the real railroad schemes. All of them share the same FlyerChief features set which includes ElectroCoupler, Speed Control, firebox flickering,  smoke, Railsounds, and on/off switches.  We think its important too that all the engines can be controlled by either the remote control that’s included with the engines and set or by a traditional transformer.  As for the differences, you’re correct that those details you  mention are the difference between the models.   

1. Last year I asked you if a future Berkshire with more scale features would be produced for Flyer.  You thought it could happen.  Is that still a possibility and if so how soon?

Lionel has discussed offering an even higher detailed version of the Berkshire in the future, one that might even possibly operate from the Legacy system.  This is still a possibility for a future run of the AF Berkshire down the road, but at present we feel strongly that the FlyerChief version of this engine with the current detailing is very nice engine that we are able to offer at a decent price.   Honestly it will be at least a few years before we take a serious look at offering the Berkshires with any difference in details and operating system.  

1. There are no new Legacy engines in the catalog and the new ones are Flyer Chief.  It looking in the O Gauge catalog it seems that most new products are Lion Chief. In the future will there be Legacy products as well as Flyer Chief or is Lionel shifting away from Legacy for S?   

As you know Lionel has been quite assertive over the last few years in its release of a wide selection of new scale engines and scale rolling stock.  Since our release of the semi-scale Big Boy a handful of years back, it’s been clear that many of our customers and other S Gaugers were “chomping at the bit” for something new in the S Gauge line. And we’ve  been excited to expand our S product line toward that demand. Admittedly though it has been a bumpy road navigating our efforts to the needs of both highrailers and scale operatiors, and this has created some confusion in the marketplace and some issues with our product and efforts.  With the cost of new tooling and parts continuing to be on the increase, Lionel wants to be doubly sure that the product we offer meets the demands of our customers, and in turn that  our customers are willing and able to support our efforts with strong orders.   We feel that 2015 is a good year to regroup on our efforts in scale products to make sure our next scale offering is a strong one.  Additionally, we are excited about the soon-to-be release of our new scale-sized Berkshire and want to make sure we don’t step ahead of ourselves with other new engines before it has a chance to be operated by our customers.  

1. The catalog shows no new products for S Scale people.  Are there plans to produce products that use scale wheel sets in the future?

There are ongoing discussions at Lionel regarding our best option for satisfying the scale guys in terms of proper scale wheel sets.

1. When Lionel cancels a product like the mechanical reefers and the two Berkshire trains sets introduced in the 2014 catalog can you explain what factors cause that type of a decision? 

Most often a dropped product for companies like Lionel is based on two main factors: the cost of the project to produce and the number of orders coming in to support it. With train sets the variables can get even more complex, considering the fact that the locomotives and rolling stock are not always made at the same location, don’t have the same requirements regarding quantities, etc.  Ultimately as you know Lionel chose to offer the Berkshires all as separate sale locomotives except for the Polar Express RTR train set.

1. You canceled the mechanical reefers this past year.  Are there any plans to try to make them again?  Are there any plans for other modern cars to be produced?

It’s possible that the reefers could be considered again in the future, but we are certainly considering a variety of different scale freight cars.  Modern cars in particular is an area that we have looked into closely.

1. The 49876 water tower w/shed is now being delivered and it appears too large for S and almost O.  Also, it is not “toy like” most accessories for O and S are, but seems to be a scale type item.  Can you give the background on this accessory and if Lionel has plans to do more items like it?

I think this accessory is quite realistic and would look good on either an S Gauge or an O Gauge layout.  I don’t believe we’ve ever advertised this as a true scale-size piece, but instead we’ve focused on realistic look and details of this accessory.  With that said, as we move forward with other ideas for new accessories we will take close consideration of true scale for these items. 

1. Has the backlog of the west coast ports slowed down Lionel’s ability to deliver products to dealers and customers?

I do think Lionel has been affected as so many other companies have been with issues at the ports, but it’s not an area of business here that I have connection with. 

1. There seems to be a shortage of the traditional Flyer type wide radius track so it demands very high prices in the market.  Has Lionel considered manufacturing it again?

We have considered it yes, but we are most interested in supporting our new FasTrack system. I would not expect Lionel to offer the traditional style track anytime soon.

1. Are there any plans to reissue Flyer accessories that can be operated with the Legacy system?

While there have been some thoughts about this at Lionel, we haven’t planned this out as part of our line in the near future. If there are a few specific accessories that Flyers would be most excited about seeing in our Legacy system, please let us know!

1. Will Lionel be making “Plug & Play” Fastrack sections for S Gauge track?

Once Lionel has finished with its release of the core FasTrack pieces including switches etc, we will take a serious looking at the PlugnPlay system in regards to American Flyer.  So much new development has gone into our O Gauge PlugnPlay system and are just now making it out to the market.  We will certainly discuss our options as it could apply to the S Gauge line.

1. On the various toy train forums there is discussion about, “Did Lionel receive the orders that were anticipated for that Polar Express set?”  How does the Lionel management feel about the order volume for the set?

While orders were not as strong as we expected, we feel there are a lot of train fans who are waiting to see the product before they commit, and we feel there is a lot of anticipation and excitement about the set. We feel strongly this set will become a core RTR train set in the Flyer line for years, just as it has in our O Gauge line.     

1. Does your company have any plans to issue or reissue smaller steam locomotives like a Pacific, Consolidation, Mogul, or a switcher?

We definitely have discussed offering an additional smaller engine or switcher to our Flyer line.

1. Does your company look at the top sellers in your O gauge product line when it considers what to build in S?

So much has been offered already in O Gauge as well as the S Gauge market.  In some cases we certainly find that a new item for our S Gauge line is represented in our O Gauge line. But we don’t specifically look at our O gauge line to make a decision.

1. Will your company consider going to meets that are specific to S gauge to show your S gauge product line and listen to hobbyists about their needs and reactions to what you are selling?

We will consider S Gauge shows yes. It’s true though that we have to choose carefully what main shows we go to, and a bulk of this does typically support our much larger line of O Gauge scale and traditional products.

1. What are your company’s plans to attract new modelers to S gauge?

With the completion of our FasTrack system of AF track, Lionel is nicely propped to attract new train operators to S Gauge with RTR trains sets like the Polar Express and other future RTR sets.  We feel strongly that the first step in building this market and bringing in new customers is to make it as easy and as fun to enter the hobby as possible! 

Manufacturers can maximize investments by using the same tooling for “new” products sold at the same or close to the same price as the original products that absorbed the initial cost of the tooling. American Flyer/Lionel has done this for over 60 years with rolling stock and locomotives. Lionel’s S gauge introductions had some teething problems, but a few tweaks here and there could allow them to reintroduce them with more favorable response.

The Polar Express and the subsequent Berkshire engines indicate that American Flyer can fall into two categories: “toy” trains that work as high-rail products with lower price points (Polar Express) and more highly detailed, more expensive high-rail products that can also attract scale modelers willing to make some modifications starting as simply as replacing wheelsets (SD70ACe, ES44AC). Lionel may be reluctant to put its foot into the second category again after the response to the cylindrical hoppers and the tepid response to mechanical reefers, but those reactions stemmed from its own mistakes or their own misreading of the market.  The Y-3 and the ES44AC are proof that when Lionel addresses the little flaws, the resulting products are terrific.

With little extra investment, Lionel could reissue some older products with minor updates:

• U33C
• • change the electronics to the latest AC/DC/DCC capability
  • change the pilots to the ingenious pivoting pilots used on the SD70 and ES44
  • ensure that the wheel arrangement is as good as it is on the ES44 and revised SD70
  • issue new numbers; tone down the red LED light in back

• SD70ACe/ES44AC

• • New cab with the headlight in the nose like 94% of the real locomotives on the road
  • New numbers/road names in non-glossy paint schemes

• Pacific/Mikados

• • change the electronics to the latest AC/DC/DCC capability

• cylindrical hoppers

• • revise the bolster
    • lower, more prototypical position
    • change construction so that it is easy to replace wheelsets for scale wheels
  • offer fewer fantasy paint schemes in favor of prototypical versions (with multiple numbers)

Only relatively slight changes are required to revive these products. If a 40-ft boxcar can be “reborn” every year for over six decades with just a repaint, surely a little effort can bring some more return on the original investment for these items.

As far as new products go, there is always the revival of the mechanical reefer. The most common rolling stock missing from S gauge is the autorack. Its length may pose problems, but O gauge has found some workarounds for that.

There is no need to offer both high-rail and scale versions of each product as long as Lionel also offers scale wheels (not wheel-truck combinations) and a simple method of replacing the high-rail wheels. Packaging both a high-rail version and a scale version is too expensive and difficult to manage in terms of inventory and sales. Steam locomotives are an exception because there is no simple way to swap out wheels.

Perhaps the Lion Chief category could expand to include both power systems and value priced basic systems and the Legacy category expand to include advanced control systems and the more highly detailed high-rail offerings with the option of replacing wheelsets for scale wheelsets. (The two categories would be simpler to distinguish than Rail King/Imperial/Premier.)  

Rocco,

Sounds good, but Thomas (if offered in well proportioned 1:64) is a SMALL (but very useful) engine.  The boiler is smaller than anything else in S, and although mine has the chuff unit from the original Docksider chassis, I couldn't fit in the HO smoke unit.  As far as fitting in a sound system, it would be EXTREMELY difficult.  Even the motor was a challenge to fit in.  Notice the modification to the motor bracket:

I suppose you could eliminate the mechanical chuff unit altogether and replace it with an electronic one, but it would have to be SMALL.  And would Lionel invest in such a unique item?  On the other hand, once developed, it could be used in almost any locomotive.  But you could never squeeze in Legacy or any more circuitry in Thomas!  Mine is straight DC, and just the circuitry for the directional lights was tough to fit (it goes behind the motor).

HOWEVER,,,if anybody at Lionel R&D is reading this forum, I'd be willing to lend them my Thomas for development.  Just give me the certifiably first Thomas set off the line in exchange.  Isn't that somewhat how the Gilbert Frontiersman set was done??? 

A coup of replies in one.

Roundhouse Bill: I resubscribed to the S Gaugian because of you article.  Thanks for sharing it again.

TOKELLY: I like some of your enhancement ideas, especially the Cylindrical Hoppers.  I really want more Legacy and less Lionel Chief.  Having said that I wonder how difficult it would be to offer the same engine with either Lionel Chief or Legacy under the built to order model. I also would love Autoracks!

PONIJA: I know Bachmann is offering an HO Thomas with sound.  I do not have your expertise regarding the smoke issue.  I just see this as a great opportunity to grow S if Lionel has the S License.  If not I wonder if MTH would be interested in stepping in to a possible kids intro to S market.

banjoflyer: I agree I think with some minor tooling they should be able to make a center beam car.

--Rocco--

Ok, before I comment, I am an ogauger. Always have been and will be (at least for the next 10yrs.) Now, some things I would like to see is only this....

THAT THEY USE THAT K-LINE TOOLING THAT HAS BEEN SITTING AROUND. Yes, I know that making k-line tooling for o gauge run on S-gauge is costly, but think of all those models that could be made with that tooling. I personally would like to see some new things for my fellow modelers, (even if they are in a different scale.) Correct me if I am wrong on this. It is just an idea.

Nickstrains

Hi Nickstrains,

It's not a new idea here in S-Land.  Some things are converted nicely, but most aren't.  Installing S gauge trucks under an O gauge item works in very few cases.  Lionel tried that with their "ducking giraffe" car a few years ago, and the proverbial lead balloon flew better.  OTOH, the Industrial Rail caboose with S trucks works great.  I'm not familiar with the K-Line offerings, but their boxcar (according to some vocal folks in S) doesn't have a prototype, therefore is unworthy of traversing two-rail track.  I personally like it. 

Rocco,

Smaller smoke units are out there, but on my Thomas I cut up a Flyer docksider for the chassis.  More modern smoke units are out of my comfort zone.   Sound boards are small, so having one in HO isn't surprising.  It's the reverse unit and smoke issues that may be the stumbling blocks.  And there's a sizable contingent of S gaugers who like the modern electronics, which will NOT fit without a major shrinking of the circuit boards.  Lionel reportedly had a hard time fitting it into the Polar Express, so fitting it into Thomas....  As far as MTH making a Thomas, that would only happen, I think, if Lionel allows them to do so, since they have the license to make Thomas.  But then, I don't know the details of their licensing agreement.  Lionel makes a G and O gauge Thomas, so maybe it includes their whole product line.  Your other suggestions are right on!

Banjoflyer

Your suggestion of a center beam flatcar and auto rack are great!  I'd love to see them too.

TOKELLY,

Modern equipment would also be nice to see, but you hit the nail on the head with the reluctance of some folks to go with Lionel offerings.  They need to get it right the first time.

And even though Thomas might not be everyone's cup of tea, you could always put him on a depressed center flatcar and have him as a load being transported to venues like the Henry Ford's Greenfield Village where he runs for three weekends in a row to sell-out performances.  But as an aside, the locomotive actually is transported on a lowboy trailer over the highways.  How do I know?  I work at the Village an watched him arrive and put on the tracks.  Next time, I'll make a video of it and post it.  Very cool to see!

As far as what I'd like to see?  I'm interested in passenger trains, and an Amtrak modern diesel would be nice.  But only American Models makes passenger cars, although they're the Superliner ones.  Lionel could easily simply paint the Flyer streamlined ones in Amtrak colors and they would be just fine as the "heritage" fleet.  Like this American Models Budd:

More than my 2 cents, I know.... sorry.

Poniaj: Actually I believe Lionel either gave up or lost the G gauge Thomas license to Bachman who now make both G Gauge and HO gauge Thomas the Tank Engine trains.  Makes you almost wonder if Lionel even has the "S" gauge license or if it is up for grabs for someone like MTH.

--Rocco--

The old Marx freight car tooling K-Line had is just a shade north of S in size.  K-Line did offer them with Flyer compatible trucks.  They still are readily available at S-Fests, S-Spree's and NASG conventions.  Even at 10-15 bucks, the piles of cars never seem to go down, proving that just putting S trucks under some warmed-over leftover tooled cars doesn't make them marketable. 

The K-Line Big Boy sorta worked (about 1:60 scale) as long as one didn't park it next to the scale sized Challenger of couple from 2011.  The K-Line Allegheny is even bigger, being about 1:58 scale.

Personally, I'd rather see reissued stuff based on Gilbert tooling than the leftovers.

The old Industrial Rail caboose is spot on for S:

Although lower in resolution than the SouthWind Model caboose behind it, it scales out just a scale inch or two short than the prototype.

As far as MTH goes, as long as the goal posts for the F3's keep moving ever three month's or so, I wouldn't expect anything newly tooled, Thomas or otherwise, in S from them.  The only thing "new" so far from MTH is the piggy-back flat cars and they're not on the street yet.

Rusty

I think reissuing the Mikado and Pacific with Legacy would be great. I would like to see a Hudson with Legacy but I do not expect that to happen. I am puzzled why American Models can produce a variety of engines yet Lionel cannot. I have all my AM engines retrofitted with TMCC and Railsounds, so when I look at that total cost (purchase price +retrofit costs) it should be profitable for Lionel to sell at that price point. A Legacy equipped Berkshire would also be nice.

The TMCC equipped Mikado is a relatively small engine. If you want to see what can be done to improve that engine with currently available electronics, motors and smoke units watch the video on Carl Tuveson's website.

I do not do the conversions myself, I have neither the time nor patience for the detail work. They are done by a professional who provides this service.

I have had four Alco PA's, two E8's and two trainmasters converted. so they can be done. Next up will be a new RS-11, but that one will require milling the chassis.

I would like to see a Postwar Celebration series.

Include some of the more sought after sets.

Thanks,

Phil  

This is a game we play every year, and it seems as time goes on there is less optimism that we will win this game - heck, there's even fewer people playing the game now (this used to be a topic that would get 100 + replies). You people are all waisting your time!!!

1. Rocco hit it on the head.  57' reefers.  Try it again, tell us they won't suck and tell us that they are part of the BTO model. I will preorder if it is recataloged.  If not the 57'ers, Lionel please give us some other modern scale freight car(s) to run behind the beautiful SD70s and ES44s.  And they are nice engines!!!
2. Recatalog a grade crossing, I would prefer the lighted gate crossing but really any will do at this point. Take a look at the tooling please Lionel and see if you can make that goofy frog look better on your turnouts.
3. Reuse that Mikado tooling, look how many road names Lionel spit out for the light and heavy Mikes In O. The only explanation that seems to make sense here with the lack of Mikado offerings is that Lionel does not have the tolling anymore for the S gauge model (maybe a casualtie of the Sanda Kahn fiasco?). 
4. The PE set is awesome! Even with the issues.  But we need more than a fantasy set for the RTR market. Put the flyer chief system in a Geep or Baldwin and get a 4 or 5 car set out there.
5. My only request for a newly tooled Legacy piece - SD40-2. We have had multiple threads discussing the justification for this one. I would buy one, more than one...I would make you take my money for this one Lionel! 
6. This one is more of a request in detail change - the flyerchief Berks, you are disappointing us somewhat with the cast in handrails, it is what it is I guess, but PLEASE put a more realistic coal load in the tender. The PE Berk's coal load will just not do on the separate sale Berk's. 
7. A Legacy Big Boy with whistle steam.   (So I lied in #5) 

Thats more than enough for now. I hope the 2016 AF catalog has me excited like every other one (except 2015) did. 

Ben

Part of the reason is these kind of threads set up unrealistic expectations.  We all have our own preferences and biases for what we think will be in the next catalog and a sure fire seller.  In one of the past threads, some had firmly believed a Flyer SD40-2 would be in the next catalog.

Then when the catalog comes out...

I'm at the point where vapor products are of little interest to me.  Even the stuff that's going to be made is taking forever to finally show up on store shelves.  At this point in my life, products announced today very likely won't show up until after I retire in a few years. Even my patience has worn thin.

While there's a couple of items still in my personal preorder pipeline, I've pretty much shut down the thought of preordering future locomotives at this point, so fantasizing about future offerings is indeed a waste of time. 

There are still one or two special locomotives I would be in for, but they are even less likely to be made than a scale Flyer SD40-2.

Time to start concentrating on the old project backlog instead.

Rusty

Union Pacific FEF-3 and/or Milwaukee Road S3 northern.

Well if we want to turn this into a wish list I would suggest 3 different categories

1) Best for the growth of "S" Gauge

2) Best for Lionel's profits in "S" Gauge

3) Best for my personal want in "S" Gauge

So what are my answers to the above?

1) Best for the growth of "S" Gauge - I would say Lionel should make Thomas the Tank engine in "S" along with all his other engines.  Repurpose AF accessories and turn them into Thomas accessories such as  Thomas and the Barrel loader or Thomas and the Cow on the track.  This would take business away from Bachman big time.

2) Best for Lionel's profits in "S" Gauge - I would say new Passenger cars (maybe smooth sided but I'm not sure) with detailed interiors and proper lengths. This new tooling could be used again and again for different road names with Lionel certainly getting their investment back on this tooling.

3) Best for my personal want in "S" Gauge - Have always wanted and admired the GS4 Southern Pacific Daylight steam engine.  I have always been drawn to it an it would be a must have with a Legacy option available.

--Rocco--

Mark, that's a neat looking locomotive.  This paint job would also interest me and it might be easier to produce: