Future of Post War collecting?

>>Why is it a weak argument?  Those heritage engines & rolling stock clearly say SP, BN, CNW, NYC, etc. on them.  It's the name that's important after all, based on your original argument, right?<<

Your argument is so out of context, it doesn't make sense...

Sorry,  no way to respond.

Joe..

Is it?  The analogy seems pretty relevant based on what I read into the Lionel name versus the importance (or lack thereof) of the company that owns the name from some of your prior posts.

You mean you can't think of a way to respond.

You mean you can't think of a way to respond.>>>

I can think of lots of ways to respond, but when I take your last response about fallen flags VS Lionel continuity into consideration, it won't make sense to you.  so I won't.

Joe

Try me, you might be in for a pleasant surprise.

>>Try me, you might be in for a pleasant surprise.<<

Thanks but no thanks John. Time to give it a rest..

I'll save my thoughts to fight the good fight another day.

Joe

Excellent! A condescending post trying to show another post as condescending. Done with personal opinion presented as fact. Sorry, I don't buy it. The poster basically said he didn't let the door hit him in the butt on the way out of postwar. I noticed the point being fear of loss of value. Have you looked at the disparity between past and current prices on modern stuff? Modern items suffer a price collapse once in the secondary market. Guess what? You'll still pay big money for that 1960's FM in exc while a mint 1990's FM can be had for about $150.    

No Frank , I noticed it too. I was particularly taken aback by those who out and out dismiss PW as junk. A true hobbyist doesn't "dis" anothers passion, true some PW was/is junk as is MPC or modern stuff but because it's not your cup of tea or lacks realism or the modern bells and whistles doesn't make it junk. I'm not into Marx but I'm not going to tell someone who is that it's junk just because I don't find it appealing. It's no different if someone builds a layout with all MTH and posts about it only to have a hand full of folks talk trash about it because it's not Lionel.

Plus comparing PW Lionel to modern stuff is apples and oranges, kinda like comparing an F16 to a P51 Mustang but pilots of both aircraft have great admiration for the each other and their planes.

Jerry

I don't know if Postwar will survive.  I don't know much about Corvette's.  Neither am I a lawyer so I don't know much about a court of law.  But this much I know...

Though I model in scale S (not AF), and though I have won contests in the past for my modeling efforts (when I dabbled in the contest thing... which I learned is not my thing), and though I am not a PW expert, or a PW collector, nor do I even have a 3 rail layout...

I KNOW that when I pick up my 665 that is patiently waiting for Christmas season to arrive, and I feel its heft, smell its smells, and gaze at its overall impact... there is NO OTHER MODEL TRAIN that can stir the things inside that it can stir.  Things I can't even explain.  I just like having it around.  When it gets put through its paces in a few short weeks, and I will hear its buzzing E-unit and see its puffing smoke and blow the air whistle tender as it pulls an illuminated set of heavyweight passenger cars under the tree... it will give me a neat feeling that only such a train can give. 

That much I know. 

By contrast, my scale S brings to me an entirely different set of "ah moments".

It's ALL GOOD.

And there it is in a nutshell.

Art

Very well put, Mr. Ming.

Wow!!! Some of you guys just can't give it a rest.      But since you seem to be hung up on "right minds"...  Well yeah, I guess it must be difficult to know which mind is speaking sometimes:  we first knew you here as Frank53... then you switched over to the Harry Doyle "alias" for a year or two... only to resurface these days as Frank53 again.    

Back on topic though as a comment to several recent posters here... perhaps I missed something... and I'd rather not spend the time going back to read this entire thread again... but WHERE did anyone paint with broad-brush strokes that post-war was junk (as a few folks here have insinuated on this page)????   

I heard someone say they thought postwar was dead or will be in the future.  I suggested that it's future may reside in a somewhat murky middle ground between scale/hi-rail and more toy-like tinplate offerings.  And several recent posts talked about whether or not today's Lionel products really carry the same "clout" as Lionel products built back in the good 'ole days when the Lionel factory was across the Hudson River in NJ from the the company's New York City WHQ office.

So I'm really amazed how ANY of those comments equate to "dis"ing folks who like PW today; being called judgmental; calling PW out and out junk; or anything else that only serves to stir the pot.  As I said, if you care to disagree, then please do so in a civil manner.  Some of the attempts at wit here have been sorely lacking at best.

Sorry if some of us here may view the market segment that PW enthusiasts like today as something that MAY not hold up a few decades from now. It doesn't mean we don't like PW... nor does it mean we don't like PW enthusiasts of today.  It's a big enough hobby for everyone.

Hey, the two "market segments" I'm in today (hi-rail and standard gauge tinplate) may not hold up in 30 years either.  None of us knows for sure.  As I alluded to earlier in this thread when Allan posted a 180-degree position from mine, the only thing any of us can say with 100% certainty is that the odds are pretty good that if we line up 10 folks, we'll get 10 different viewpoints.    This community, as wonderful as it is, has proven that phenomenon time and time again, and it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of everyone in this hobby. 

David

Huh???    I didn't say I was breaking any "news".  You switched back to Frank53 quite some time ago as I recall.  I guess I just don't know that many people here who feel the need to post with alter egos and/or different screen names, and then get hung up on a simple expression. 

But hey... if you feel the need to get the last word in with another attempt at poor wit, please do be my guest.  We're watching you dig the hole deeper.

David

Hey Nick,  sorry about that.  I hate when threads start going down this path too.  It never spotlights the best of what this forum is about.  Signing off now....

David

No please David don't mind me. I just got back with the popcorn. Harry Doyle is a riot! 

The only thing I can say for sure in this thread is that some of the views on Corvettes are downright laughable. Very, very poor analogies folks. Take it from someone with close to a decade of NCRS experience - Corvettes are a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

quote:

but WHERE did anyone paint with broad-brush strokes that post-war was junk (as a few folks here have insinuated on this page)????    

quote:

The indisputable fact remains, Lionel Corp. produced pure junk for a decade or more before its demise and it took MPC another decade or more to improve it to near the standards everyone remembers as the great PW years.

Actually, I agree that a lot of the 1960's Lionel product was not very well made. However that does not mean that it isn't collectable. Quite the opposite. Some of that stuff is quite difficult to find, and more people are beginning to appreciate those items. I guess the relative scarcity is due to both lower sales, and more of the late stuff ending up in the rubbish bin.
I wouldn't expect many people to buy late 1960's stuff to actually run.

quote:

The only thing I can say for sure in this thread is that some of the views on Corvettes are downright laughable. Very, very poor analogies folks. Take it from someone with close to a decade of NCRS experience - Corvettes are a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

So which would you rather own, a correct 1953 Corvette or a factory fresh 2014 model?

It's always dangerous to use the word "future" in a thread title because to the best of my knowledge nobody here has a crystal ball, and if they do have one, they are unskilled in its use.  

One of the reasons I collect post-war trains is the availability of parts.  One enjoyment I have is resurrecting a beater back to life.  Other posters have bemoaned the fact that parts for modern era trains are unattainable after a certain point relegating the item to shelf queen status.

Even the recent CC and PWC re-issues will be repairable in the future as many original post-war parts can be used for repair.

I'm am now in the process of converting a reissued 133 station into a 132 station stop version.  The reissued version still has the holes in it to mount the bi-metal switch and controller along with the hole for the original light socket.

BTW, I do have a quantity of older DCS and TMCC equipped engines.

Neither. Instead, a Bentley Azure (sp?) or Rolls Royce.

American Flyer postwar enthusiasts may possibly be in a better position to see the break between the “old” and the “new”. To be sure, the Lionel Corp. picked up the American Flyer name and much of the tooling in 1967, but manufacturing of new S gauge trains under the American Flyer name did not return until 1979.

Under Lionel MPC, LTI, and LLC many Flyer trains have been made in Michigan, Mexico, or China, often but not always with original Gilbert tooling. Few would confuse, however, a reissue from Lionel with a Gilbert New Haven original. The difference is easily spotted from across a room. The trains are from different times and locations, made by different workers of different materials and paint formulations. The history of the trains, as industrial artifacts and play things, matters. And, Lionel has never reissued (and likely never will) any of the iconic Gilbert Flyer steam engine models equipped with the fabulously clever smoke and choo-choo mechanism.

The relative technological limitation of the New Haven Gilbert Flyers is part of their charm and history. One has to actually ‘drive’ the earlier trains, 30B in hand. Cruise control is a very useful and powerful feature, but sometimes it fosters zombie-like operations in absentia.

As for the future, the postwar Flyer market bifurcated long ago between the common runners and the crispy critter survivors. There shall always be some who seek Flyers such as the ’56 NP Vista Dome Limited and big Northern freight sets. They’re classics.

That said, Lionel in its various iterations has made some very nice S gauge trains which can be enjoyed on the same layouts as the original Gilberts. The latest offerings are equipped with all of the modern features of their O gauge cousins. One does not preclude the other. Each may be enjoyed for what they are.

Speculation of course -- the market will ebb and flow but I believe that postwar (and prewar) American-made trains will continue to have a certain cache that the modern Asian imports do not. Vinyl and turntables first faded and now have come back into vogue, so why not postwar O and S gauge trains?

Run 'em if you have 'em.

Bob

I am 39, and I have no fondness of PW from my childhood.  Just got into 3 rail 2 or 3 years ago.  That being said, I just LOVE my 6110!  I will be looking for more PW in the coming weeks-not mint, but runners.  There is something indescribable about that engine and all PW that I have seen.  Do I like the new stuff?  Yes! Lionel?  MTH? Williams?  Atlas?  Marx?  How about Pre War?  MPC?  Modern?  HO Scale-S,G,Z,T,N?  Yes to them all!  As far as the original question- I think PW prices will drop on all except rare and mint pieces.  At least I hope so!

Postwar not dead. See this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel-SUPER-RARE-1966-Only-SP-Smoke-Pellet-Dealer-Counter-Display-/310772115859?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item485b762993#ht_2799wt_1158

The history of the old trains makes wonder at times.  What was it like to be the kid who first got that train for Christmas of 47, and how was the holiday without brother/cousin/uncle/dad?

And at $2,225 the reserve isn't met yet???!!!      That's wild.  Wonder what the seller is hoping to get???

David

If I may weigh in here, I don't think PW collecting or operation is dead at all, nor will it ever be completely dead.

I'm 41, so I have no first-hand experience nor the luck of seeing the PW trains when they were brand new, having that excitement of getting the catalog, record, layout planning book and the subtle "note for Dad" package in the mail and wondering what innovations Lionel was going to come out with in the next year.

But, from an operation and collecting standpoint, I will say that I still see a focus among people I see at meets on the PW stuff, no doubt.  In fact, someone had purchased a 1950's Scout set in nice shape for their son to get him started in trains, and chose it over some modern sets.

Even 1960's Lionel has a good amount going for it, in that there is still ease of repair and durability.

In my opinion, PW collecting nor the demand will die out.  There is, as mentioned above, ease of repair (I see more threads on here about boards that fry, reprogramming something to make it work, etc.)  I can get into one of my PW locos with a couple of screws removed and take care of most repairs at home, without the need to go to my LHS and have it shipped back to China or Lionel to be repaired.

There is also cost (and through that, accessibility): because of some of the issues I just mentioned, I simply refuse to pay up to a couple thousand dollars for a locomotive, brand new, to run the risk of a board blowing up, it not accepting a code on TMCC or something else that simply shouldn't be happening on a factory-fresh item.  Inexcusable.  Apart from that, I simply don't have that much money to be paying for a train.  I can get a nice PW set or locomotive, and sometimes not break $100 or $200 for it, take it home and start enjoying it right away.

As for Lionel still making the same thing they did in the PW period, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I can take apart the new X242 in the new Scout freight set and see a circuit board, a smoke unit and a small can-type motor that may not last.  I can take apart a 6110 or 1110 and see a smoke unit and heavy motor that I can repair and maintain at home, and it's seen over 60 years of service on rails under Christmas trees, layouts, pulling passenger and freights, and now with me for my enjoyment.  

Some modern equipment (including some really expensive pieces I've read about on here) have been relegated to the shelf because they're internally damaged and may not be repairable.

At the end of the day, no one knows the future. One example will show what I mean: we dropped the A-bomb on Japan in 1945. Many must have thought this awesome power must be the wave of the future. Here we are, in that future, and atomic power is not quite the answer. My point: no one knows what trends society will take. Another example: Sociologists try to make a science out of studying society, yet none came close to predicting the upheavals of the 1960's, before they happened. Even our post-war trains were originally toys and are now collectibles.

quote:

And at $2,225 the reserve isn't met yet???!!!      That's wild.  Wonder what the seller is hoping to get???

The auction has four more days to go. We may find out

Actually, I don't want either.  But a pristine '56 V8 with four-speed - now that I want.

I think alot of us use cars - another hobby for many here - as an analogy to toy trains, and I know it surely isn't a perfect fit, but some of the points are valid.  Still, I too object to any implication that all post-war stuff was junk. Some Marx and Lionel stuff from that period that I have just needed a good cleaning and a bit of sanding and repaint after years of kids playing with them - a few required no parts.  And look and run as good as new.  (My the way, never saw an old Corvette I could say that about). 

I was too young to remember much of the Christmas of 1947, but I darn sure remember the Christmas of 1950 when I was "launched" into a lifelong affection for toy trains.  There was a brief hiatus here and there (college, military, etc.) but the spark was never extinguished.

Postwar is probably my main interest and I've held off responding, waiting to see if a collective conclusion came out of this.  It sure didn't!  Many thoughtful points have been presented.  IMHO the market will probably rise and fall some.  I like the Mona Lisa analogy that was offered and would expect that, like that ancient work, the interest in postwar trains never disappears completely.  The old things are just too darn interesting!  

That's precisely what drew me into pre-war style Standard Gauge Tinplate trains.  I don't know enough about the "originals" produced back in the 1920's and 1930's.  But their modern-day counterparts are exquisitely captivating And equally alluring. The important challenge going forward is keeping them in good shape while still enjoying them today.  Both post-war and pre-war originals seem very abundant in less-than-appealing, well-soiled conditions.  I guess the trick is finding the good stuff, but then we're back to stratospheric prices which may keep either market segment from gaining significant traction down the road.

David

I too have held off adding my 2c worth, but here goes: Postwar (and Prewar) will always last as toys, while the Modern Era with it's increasing level of detail will go the way of early imported brass - somebody is always going to make it better in the future and no one collects the stuff made in the 60's in Japan. Plus the eventual obsolescence of the new control systems will leave them inoperable (unless retrofitted with antique e-units). Postwar was meant to be PLAYED with rather than "operated prototypicaly". I guess I'll just keep playing.

I think post war will be ok but there is some real junk out there, for instance the MPC Chessie Special.  That loco is junk.  Also the pre Bachmann Williams, in particular the F45 in the blue Santa Fe paint job, junk junk junk.  Same goes for the Bowser Road Railers.  Why if I had those on my layout I would list them in the Buy Sell Trade forum at an obscenely low price just to get rid of them.  

quote:

I think post war will be ok but there is some real junk out there, for instance the MPC Chessie Special.

MPC is not Postwar.
Postwar production runs from 1945 to 1969.

MPC started in 1970, I don't recall the ending year.

Regardless, are you referring to the 1980 Chessie Berkshire, #6-8003? It's on my list of Modern era trains to purchase. What is wrong with it?

The MPC Chessie Steam Special set also is classic collectable. A great looker on a display shelf.  A top five priority to own for MPC fans. 

Joe

Because a Corvette is a classic sports car; a large and intricate working piece of gas combustion machinery that has been worked long and hard in the outdoor elements to perform for its owner. Of course with advanced age it's going to need more work than a little electric toy that's sat inside its entire life 

As for the question of which one would you rather own, the answer is one has little or nothing to do with the other really. The predominating thing I see at the National Corvette Restorers Society meets is collectors and restorers of the classics that have the newest models as their daily drivers. I also enjoy the restoration-modification style which is the classics that have been decked out with modern high performance motors and running gear. By that logic I should like the Postwar Celebration Series because it's the same concept, but alas, I don't.

There are definitely many people that enjoy both the train and classic car hobbies, but sharing participants is about where the similarities end in my experiences.

quote:

 The predominating thing I see at the National Corvette Restorers Society meets is collectors and restorers of the classics that have the newest models as their daily drivers

I have the feeling that there are a lot of Corvette owners and fans who are happy to have one.

More power to the folks that have the financial resources to have both old and new

I am 39.  I got into the hobby last Christmas by accident.  I had bought a Freight Flyer set from Sears back in the mid 80s with birthday money and dug it out to run under the tree for my kids.  This spawned some internet "research", joining some train forums, a trip to the hobby shop for new track and an almost obsessive few months of ebay purchases last winter.  Those purchases were almost exclusively pre and early post war.  Something just clicked with the earlier stuff.  It was easy to work on, relatively cheap, robust, there were many examples to choose from, and it satisfied my need to tinker/clean and fix things.  There really isn't any nostalgia in it for me as I wasn't born when this stuff came out.  I don't have any illusions of selling the stuff to make a profit.  I bought it because I like it.  There will always be people who come into the hobby that are enchanted by pre or post war trains for reasons they might not understand.  I may not be a collector as I'm not buying mint in the box items but for me the market was there when I wanted to buy.  It will be there in the future as well because there will be people who want to buy.

Scott