Future of Post War collecting?

nope she is not dead, yet,  Stout auction today, right now, almost

every single box car lot,  going for north of $100.00

Post War collecting ended in the early 90’s for me.

With the invention of the internet, model advancements and companies other than Lionel emerging, the model train industry was changed forever.

With the poor economy and dwindling interest, I’m stuck with 2 walls of non-scale toy items that are difficult to sell off.

It's also on my want list, almost picked one up at York but got a 1776 set instead.

As for pre-Bachmann Williams being junk I don't think you will find many here if any who agree with that statement Garfield. There may have been the odd lemon in the bunch but most are work horses that require minimum attention to keep them running, sort of the modern version of postwar.

Jerry

quote:

As for pre-Bachmann Williams... <snip>... sort of the modern version of postwar.

Without the ozone n' grease smells. 

No ozone n' grease smells = Not the same animal to this boy's olfactory senses.

Only 33 days until Christmas Train Time.

Never said it was the same animal, but as far as reliability and "play" value they are the modern day version.

Jerry

wow dude! some of us still collect exclusively post war!

quote:

Never said it was the same animal, but as far as reliability and "play" value they are the modern day version.

Awww... stay chilled Jerry.  No fuss material to be found here.

Read my post a bit closer: I said it wasn't the same to ME. 

I'm sure Bachmann/Williams makes great stuff... just not the same to me.  I personally prefer the old motors inside the models and the grease smell, etc.

Like I said earlier: It's all good.

The conventional wisdom with post war is that once the people who grew up with it move on, that it will dwindle away. While the future is murky, I suspect that there will be people running it and collecting it for the forseeable future, albeit not in the same numbers perhaps as today. There are some younger people who come upon it, and nostalgia trends and such tend to keep certain things going. I suspect there will be a market for rare and mint items in part because they are rare, and if the numbers of items decreases going into the future that will make them more valuable. In terms of runners, there probably always will be people who will buy post war, the operating cars and rolling stock, and the powered units because they are different. I doubt it will be anything like the hysterical collecting back in the 90s but it will be there, much as there is a market for things like tube radios and amplifiers. 

I think if someone thinks there are going to make money out of it, unless they have really rare items, or items in incredibly mint shape that there aren't a lot of, they are in for a disappointment.

No problem Laming, I agree the smells and sounds of PW have never been replicated. They were always my Christmas trigger smells along with the smell of the tree, the Life Like lychen and the smoke pills. What I liked about Williams was it allowed me to have copies of engines that at the time to have the originals was a bit cost prohibitive.

jerry

Hi Jerry!

You said:

"(Postwar smells) They were always my Christmas trigger smells along with the smell of the tree..."

Yup.

"...the Life Like lychen..."

YUP!

"...and the smoke pills."

Okay, confession: My childhood memories of Lionel do not include smoke pills.  Don't guess I recall that element... so no such trigger.  My adult years with Postwar involve contemporary smoke fluids.  HOWEVER... I have now have a bottle of VINTAGE Lionel smoke pills... and THIS Christmas at least one of those little white pills is going into the stack so I can smell the real deal.  Can't wait!

" What I liked about Williams was it allowed me to have copies of engines that at the time to have the originals was a bit cost prohibitive."

Understand completely, and back in the 90's when my Postwar/3 rail involvement were at its highest, I too, took to the reproductions for the same reasons.  That's when I learned that even though the reproductions are really neat stuff... but learned that I sort of liked the Postwar a smidge better for the reasons you and I have discussed.

Like I've said: IT'S ALL GOOD!! 

There's nothing like ozone in the O zone...

Rusty

With the current options available, knowing what I know from having spent decades in the hobby, there is very little about used PW era Lionel today I find compelling enough to collect or operate.

But that is just me.. 

There almost needs to be a separate board for Postwar like their is for Tinplate.  Not having been in this hobby for a long time but there seems to be very little in common among Hi Rail/Scale modelers and Pre/Post war operators.  We seems to all operate in the same world but on different continents.  Asking Hi Railers to speculate on the future of PW trains and vice versa is almost like speaking different languages to each other.  I guess the bottom line is we all like what we like.  For me I hope the PW trains and market are around for a long time as there are so many things I have yet to see in person or use.

Scott

I am willing to bet most of the people into 3 rail have both Post War and modern scale command control trains. Its the small vocal minority who would make you think otherwise.

Pete

If and when the economy picks back up, prices on runner grade post war trains will climb from where they are now. But current economic conditions mean that mostly those with more secure financial outlooks and/or a lot of discretionary income are buying, and they can afford to buy the very best examples.

Also, online auctions have taught us that much of what we want in the way of post war trains is a lot less scarce than was thought 10-15 years ago, when prices for runner grade trains were crazy high. Prices will eventually go back up, but how high is anyone's guess.

pete, i have none of that modern stuff. just not interested in it

Scott, I would think that a forum titled "Hi-Rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge"  would actually be the proper place for "postwar" Lionel trains to be discussed.

It's probably at least arguable as to whether some of the modern vision line scale loco's and layouts fit that forum description better than Postwar...  On the other hand, they are all just toy trains, so does it really matter????

One last point....The term "Hi rail", if not coined, was certainly used throught many of the pages of the Lionel Published  "Model Builder" magazines of the late 1930's and 1940's, so I am pretty sure those trains fit in with "Hi rail".

Which part of "Hi-Rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O Gauge" are Postwar trains not a part of???

People seem to act like they'll get cooties if Postwar is discussed...

Rusty

Most of my trains were made before 1994 because I prefer trains with mechanical reversing units. I do have a few items with electronic e-units, and even a couple of pieces with more advanced electronics, but I did not buy them for their electronic features.

I say to each their own. Too bad some folks feel it's necessary to belittle someone else's choice.

I guess one could make the case that a lot of PW isn't really Hi-Rail but it definitely is O27 and Traditional.

Jerry

maybe what we need is a separate board for all those modern/command control and such folks leaving hi rail O27 and traditional 3 rail to us? just a tought 

>>>It's probably at least arguable as to whether some of the modern vision line scale loco's and layouts fit that forum description better than Postwar...  On the other hand, they are all just toy trains, so does it really matter????<<

Actually, I believe it does.  

My guess is most folks buying into the PW era today do so for the percieved security of retained value rather then correctly buying it for display or operating quality. 

The problem with Lionel collecting has always been Lionels narrow concentrated product line. Reissued countless times over the years, many cases third party reproduced, in time it simply became redundant and boring under its own weight.  And, the selling took off. 

I guess for collectors sake, call it a case of never finding true collector love when you know so much more of it exists for others to share with you.    

Joe

I buy postwar today for it's operational & display quality.  I love looking at all those magical trains on my shelves filled with 50+ year old memories . I love the smell of the room after running them for a bit - smoke pellets, ozone & the warm oil/grease.

I love when I turn them on, 99.9% everything will work & if it doesn't, I'm sure I can fix it.

Postwar magic - 

My brother likes pw and the modern equivalent. I like the scale 3 rail trains being made today. We both enjoy each other's trains. 

I can't see why we can't have fun with both of them, I do And my brother feels the same. Trains are to be enjoyed no matter how you do it. I love all types, scale, PW, 3 rail scale, HO, N scale, std. Gauge, tinplate etc. 

let's stop the bickering and saying my trains are the best, they may be to you but others have different likes and opinions. 

quote:

My guess is most folks buying into the PW era today do so for the percieved security of retained value rather then correctly buying it for display or operating quality.

You'd be wrong in my case.

>>There is very little about modern trains I find compelling enough to collect or operate.<< 

But that is just me <<

.

Being the collector type I am, I find running a PW style toy train more then boring. I could really discribe it as torture. 

If it were not for scale models (not toy trains) equipped with prototypical speed control and sound I would have surely left the hobby years ago.  

I do have a few colorful modern era trains.. Display only..

Truth is, I can only take watching a beautifully detailed scale model with near perfect sound (music to my ears) go through its paces for short periods before calling it a day.  I spend far more time tinkering with the layout then operating trains that sit on it.

But, I never get bored admiring that same piece of Chinese made railroad art on static display.    Call it, different strokes for different folks..

But that's just me..

Joe

Collecting? For me, yes. For resale, no. I buy what I like and I am not all that concerned with what my wife or children will sell my trains for when I am gone. No matter how much they get, it is still all profit.   Ford Mustangs and Lionel Trains, what more is there????

Cobrabob.

bob

I hope this doesn't hit too close to home but, man, have you ever thought about a new handle?  Your cars are a reminder of why the "MPC Era" was a low point in American history, and not just for toy trains.

Thinking about the timing of the decline in the quality of Lionel trains in the late 50s and 60s those pore kids got a double whammy.  When they were old enough to buy cars in the 70s and 80s they had to deal with the ebb of that industry too.

Even the Klingons had their own hard times.

Fortunately standards for trains, cars and Klingons have all risen in recent decades.  

Scott

I have Lionel trains from the 30s, 40 and 50s.  I have the Lionel/MPC trains that I received as a kid in the 1970s.  And I have many Atlas, Lionel, MTH and Weaver trains that I have purchased since the 1990s.  While some of the higher end Lionel/MPC items aren't bad I have no difficulty locating the low era of three rail trains.  

Lionel's sales were declining and costs rising in the late 50s.  Many products were simplified in construction or decoration to try and cut costs and there was little to no investment in new tooling.  MPC did a higher quality job of decoration than the Lionel corporation and made some investments in tooling but most products were coming out of old molds at high prices.  If you wanted a good transformer you had to find an old one like a Z, ZW or KW and you had to pay a lot for them.

Dick Kughn did great things for Lionel.  We saw products that had been cheapened in the later years of the Lionel Corporation and stayed cheap through the MPC era receive restored features, like the return to mesh grills on the F3s.  We saw the return of some of the best products, like the first Irvington cars since 1950.  The ultimate products of the Kughn era were the Lionel Classics including the Hiawatha, the Standard Gauge 400E Blue Comet set and, of course, the 700E Scale Hudson.  But the high points of the Kughn era were reproductions of the best of 1930s Lionel.

The unmet demand for new and innovative O gauge trains led to the astounding era of investment in new tooling and new products in the last 20 years.  It has been great!  There are products for everyone.  And the quality is better than ever.  Want to run trains conventionally?  There are several manufacturers or product lines for you.  Want a good deal on post war or MPC era runners?  There are plenty at reasonable prices.  Need a powerful tranformer?  Would you like bricks, a Z-4000 or ZW-L?  Want to run trains like Lionel envisioned with the electronic set in the 1940s?  It is easier now than ever.  Want to run your tinplate trains from an iPad?  You can! 

I know a peak from a valley.  And from where we stand now I can get out the binoculars, look down and see the later years of the Lionel Corporation, the MPC era and some really slow automobiles.

As I get older, I like collecting stuff older than me. That it still runs and can cheaply be fixed if it don't gives me hope that perhaps I can do the same someday when I'm 60 or 70 years old!!  lol

I have spent many years doing the scale trains thing and finally got tired of it. Now I just wanna run big smoking,clickity clacking, buzzing, old electric trains. Plus, they're cheap to own and run. 

Y'all play with, collect, or operate what y'all want. It's still sort of a free county!

AMEN brother!

Last year 4 Sound of Steam circut boards fried. I sent them to a guy out of state to fix. 2000 Lionel Service station set mint sealed in shrink wrap opened for the first time in 2012. No sounds. Sent the whole engine to the guy out of state - had to install new capacitor in board and reseat a pin connector. Use TMCC to operate my post war 022 switches, but run all postwar or other conventional equipment. When I put my one TMCC engine on the layout it won't run in conventional because it receives the TMCC signal used for the switches and gets confused. When I ran it in TMCC I had to run a ground wire all over the place so it wouldn't speed out of control. Also, running 18 volts all the time doesn't seem right to me. Even my bulbs are original vintage - no desire to burn them out. Sold engine on ebay. Got another Sound of Steam Berkshire for $150 this year with a bad SOS board. Dallee in York orange hall 2 weeks ago wanted $129 for a steam sound system - speaker not included. That would make my $150 engine a $279 engine plus the cost of a speaker. Staying away from modern as much as possible....

Ha.  Ted - Your astute observations are a real hit!

This thread has really brought out some interesting comments and ideas. Its good to see so much involvement from the younger fellas.

Trains of all sizes and eras are GREAT!

As long as there are people around who lived during the post war lionel era, there will be a demand for them.

A more important question would be what is the future of model trains...

Once the baby boomer generation begins dying off, so will the hobby...sad...but true...

Today's generation sadly is not into such things.

Which raises and even more important question...

What is the future of our collections?

I have no children, thus who do I leave my trains to?

if i could ever figure out why i collect prewar trains, i might be able to give you a reason why i disagree.  hardly a person under 60 will remember a steam locomotive in regular service, yet i see kids today who love to see them move down the tracks.

Just for my two cents worth, I can remember people saying the same thing about Pre-War trains going back thirty years or more. In fact I can remember a friend back in the early sixties that had his  fathers Lionel 1929 set running around his tree and all of his twelve year old, know it all friends said that he should get a newer set. Well guess what, Pre-War interest is not only still out there but is growing.

Post War is much the same because they represent a special era in the hobby. There is just something special about the look and feel of them and many of our O-Gauge hobbyest will attest to that.

Let's face the smell of ozone from an open frame motor is hard to beat.

I also think it's true that things grow and shrink in peoples minds from time to time. Take the old Intendo games, there might not be much of a market for them in the modern stores, but my son bought one on the net a couple of years ago.

His reasoning at the time was that there is just something special about those old time games.

As for me most of my toy train purchases are of the modren type, but I am always interested in a Post War item if the price is right. By right I mean something that I can afford.

It's easy to say that kids aren't into trains today but I have 3 kids 10 and under and they love to watch and play with the trains.  I won't say they will be lifelong hobbyists but I can say they will have good memories of playing with trains from their youth.  I am running pre and post war trains on tubular track on the carpet with 2 1033s and a KW.  Their experience is with equipment that was new when their grandpa was a kid.  Maybe this translates to post war purchases 30 years from now to get that feeling they had when they were kids.  Btw I never had the experience of running trains with my dad or grandpa when I was a kid.  We like what we like for reasons that aren't clear to us always.  It isn't a connection to our own pasts all the time.  It sure wasn't for me and I bet many others on here as well.

Scott

"Astute" is certainly one word for it.  Words that come to my mind are more along the lines of "abrasive" and "rude."  But to each his own, I guess. 

An interesting and lengthy discussion taking place on this thread, but my thought is that far too many in this hobby spend far too much time worrying about the future when they should be just enjoying the wealth of trains--any era of trains--available to them while they are still on the top side of the dirt.