Announcement today from the York Expo Center

Well there is a way to get a refund but you will need to act fast.

 If you purchased your badge and tables with a credit card within the last 90 days you can dispute the bill siting the fact that the Eastern Division Train Meet is cancelled by the York Fairgrounds.

Don(Cerritos) posted:

I appreciate this forum, and the decorum it maintains.  However, I guess everything isn't quite what it represents.  I also appreciate people have the right of their opinion, but sometimes it should be held in check, when it is more antagonistic than beneficial.  I am specifically referring to the following statement..... "I'm disappointed that the Eastern Division was not proactive in decision-making for the benefit of their division members and the TCA membership in general, but I guess I'm not terribly surprised."  (from the Editor In Chief !)  I guess Rank Has its Privileges, even if distasteful!  I would think he would try to maintain the same standards he tries to impose on others.)  

Don,

     I am in total agreement with your feelings here.  It would have been quite enough to merely make the statement that he was disappointed that EDTCA was not pro-active in their decision making process and that would have been sufficient and I am not in total disagreement with that opinion;  but no, an added statement JUST HAD to be made he was not terribly surprised.  That added statement was totally unnecessary and distasteful especially coming from the Editor-In-Chief of O Gauge Railroading and a very prominent poster on this forum.  My observation would be that its pretty **** easy to take potshots when you are not the one making the decisions.  I think it would behoove the Editor-In-Chief to exercise some restraint in his comments on the  EDTCA.  Offering an opinion is fine but adding a back hand slap in the face is just a plain cheap shot.  Give us a break.

david1 posted:

I see nothing wrong in what Allan Miller stated. Sometimes it takes a swift kick in the butt to move the conversation. It takes a strong person to say what others would not.

David

Agree 100%.  Finally someone with the COJONES to say it.  Thanks Allan.

None of us here know what was involved with the decision making process by the Eastern TCA. It’s easy to second guess when you are not involved. 

Rental or lease agreements frequently have penalty clauses if the lessee withdraws from the agreement without cause.  On the other hand, if the lessor cancels the agreement arbitrarily, the penalty, usually a substantial percentage of the lease agreement is null and void.  Eastern Division hoped to have the meet, and a meeting was scheduled this week to make the final go-no go decision.  The Fairgrounds announced closure of all activities, including York, prior to the scheduled meeting. E.D. did not cancel the York meet!  

You guys taking pot shots at Allan Miller need to step back and face reality.  I think his statement is fully warranted.

The York Expo Center has announced that they are suspending ALL events there until at least May 10. Last time I checked, April came before May. Federal and State governments across the country are telling us not to go anywhere where there are large groups of people, especially older people. All large public venues are being ordered to close.

And yet, the EDTCA remains SILENT about the York Meet!  Their most recent statement says they will, "...meet and make a decision no later than the first week of April and the decision will be posted on the website..." There is no "decision" to make here! The decision was made for them by the Commonwealth of of Pennsylvania and the York Expo Center several days ago. The York Meet will NOT take place and they know it, yet they make no official announcement.

I think this demonstrates a stunning lack of awareness and leadership at the EDTCA.

Thank you Rich.

I haven't' been to a York meet for a few years now. Still so many sellers depend on these meets to survive. Wow, that $1000 will really be appreciated.

Before the fairgrounds made their statement I could see the EDTCA holding off because yes, depending on whether you cancel vs the venue or government is whether you can get some insurance money, refund, or compensation.  Once the fairgrounds made the announcement the EDTCA should have followed.

I am saddened to see how many comments have been made pertaining to cancellation of York, that are emotionally based and have no foundation in fact.  To start with, there is a thing called a telephone and every member of the E.D. Board may be reached by phone or e-mail.  The numbers and addresses are not classified. Personally, I prefer face to face or communication by phone rather than bloviating on a chat board.  As late as early last week , I think it is safe to say that we all hoped that York would happen.  After all, the President was telling the nation that by April he thought coronavirus would disappear "like magic."  The E.D. BOD recognized several weeks ago that cancellation of the meet was a possibility but there was still much uncertainty, as evidenced at the highest levels of government.  Yes, April comes before May, and the nation was advised that the disease has a fourteen day incubation period, thus if a decision was made n.l.t. the first week of April, there was still time.  When progression of the virus increased rapidly, a meeting was scheduled for a final decision tomorrow.  The leadership was well aware of the financial implications if the Division cancelled but having the meet was still the top priority.  As you know, the decision was made by the Fairgrounds to cancel all events and , while there will still be a meeting this week, obviously the question of go or no-go will not be on the agenda.. Had the meet been cancelled before the headlines of the past few days, I have no doubt that the E.D. Board of Directors would  have been roundly criticized for panicking. Moreover, had an earlier decision to shut down been made, the effect of the impact of the penalty clause (thousands of dollars) would have been invoked by the lessor, and that could have meant the end of York.  See you in October and stay safe and well.   

romiller49 posted:

None of us here know what was involved with the decision making process by the Eastern TCA. It’s easy to second guess when you are not involved. 

I have criticisms, but I'll keep them to myself.  Being in a leadership position in a volunteer organization is a difficult and thankless task.  Those who feel they could do a better job should run for office in the division - if ED is anything like every train group I'm familiar with, there are many opportunities for those wanting an office.

Rich Melvin posted:

You guys taking pot shots at Allan Miller need to step back and face reality.  I think his statement is fully warranted.

The York Expo Center has announced that they are suspending ALL events there until at least May 10. Last time I checked, April came before May. Federal and State governments across the country are telling us not to go anywhere where there are large groups of people, especially older people. All large public venues are being ordered to close.

And yet, the EDTCA remains SILENT about the York Meet!  Their most recent statement says they will, "...meet and make a decision no later than the first week of April and the decision will be posted on the website..." There is no "decision" to make here! The decision was made for them by the Commonwealth of of Pennsylvania and the York Expo Center several days ago. The York Meet will NOT take place and they know it, yet they make no official announcement.

I think this demonstrates a stunning lack of awareness and leadership at the EDTCA.

His opinion that he was disappointed may have been warranted but the manner in which he stated it was plainly not.  His motivation behind the statement that he wasn't surprised they failed to act was ill conceived, heavy handed and unrestrained.  He simply should have offered his opinion and let it go at that but he couldn't.  There have been many posts on this forum about the lack of civility that crops up here from time to time.  How in the world do you people think that members are going to be civil to one another when the OGR Editor-In-Chief can't be.  I think if you take the time to go back and review the comments of those who took exception to his remarks they simply did not like the contemptuous way he said it but then again those who have taken a great deal of time over the last several years bashing the EDTCA  and the York meet can't or won't see it like that.     

Alright already Alan Miller and Rich Melvin are correct. What does it matter now. Everybody knows. Why do you both have to keep beating this to death. What do you want the ED to do? What connection is it of yours? And how is it hurting you two. You two have been looked up to as owners, editors of the OGR magazine. Expressing these feelings towards the ED does nothing but cause discontent. We have enough problems in the country right now with everything going on. Yes I am an ED division member. But above that I am a TCA member. I look at it as one of the largest groups of people that Love trains and socializing with others of the like. What division it is, doesn't matter to me. I will stand up for the TCA as a whole. Instead of continuing this baggering, please call the Eastern Division heads, and discuss your strong feelings with them. Dave Nichols

Allen,

The only one with a “ tea set” in the crowd!  Thanks, for the honesty. I agree with him totally.

Funny... Everyone blaming the EDTCA for not making a decision is just a guilty of not making YOUR OWN DECISION about attending.

If you are fearful of attending why do you need EDTCA to make a decision 6 weeks before the event? Take some personal responsibility and decide for yourself before you let government or business make decisions for you.

And technically, they did make a decision before the State and the Expo Center.  They decided to "Wait and See" what the landscape looks like on April 1st (4 weeks early). Then decide what to do with a Go or Nogo.

We had a pretty unprecedented 72 hours between Friday and Sunday.  Could all of you predict last week what this week would call for?  If you could... I'd like some lottery numbers please.

Relax Folks... Unchartered waters here.  There are going to be lots of decisions that will be praised for being right and criticized for being wrong.

Go run your trains and stop buying toilet paper.

Have Fun!

Ron

As a vendor I am glad that York expo made the announcement to cancel. As far as TCA I don't know their contractual situation but if cancelling would have cost them thousands of dollars then they were right to wait. I had full intentions of canceling myself but held off waiting to see what happened in the next week. I don't know if we will get refunded or not but with the Expo making the decision there is a greater chance that this will happen. Without knowing the internal dealings between TCA and York Expo how can we be critical of how the process was handled. Could I have called them? Yes, but until everything was/ is finalized all it would have done was created more grief for the persons involved. Provided we all survive this I hope to see all that attends in October.

OKHIKER posted:

His opinion that he was disappointed may have been warranted but the manner in which he stated it was plainly not.  His motivation behind the statement that he wasn't surprised they failed to act was ill conceived, heavy handed and unrestrained.  He simply should have offered his opinion and let it go at that but he couldn't.  There have been many posts on this forum about the lack of civility that crops up here from time to time.  How in the world do you people think that members are going to be civil to one another when the OGR Editor-In-Chief can't be.  I think if you take the time to go back and review the comments of those who took exception to his remarks they simply did not like the contemptuous way he said it but then again those who have taken a great deal of time over the last several years bashing the EDTCA  and the York meet can't or won't see it like that.     

 

Unfortunately the little heart icon only works once.  This needed a "x10" feature.  Well stated.

Along with What Ron said.  Why people are complaining when they have the full control of their own destiny as to whether they wished to attend or not, even if the event had not been cancelled!

Everyone makes their own decisions about these things in the general sense (obviously not for this April now, but in general).  I know of at least one person who stopped going after 9-11 (this person had probably been to most meets for many years before that).  Shortly after that, I recall people at the meet expressing concern about attending events when the DC Sniper was still in the news.

While this pandemic is obviously a severe situation, this is just the most recent situation that could cause people to decide on their own not to attend the York meet (or other events like it).  Even before the cancellation, everyone was fully in control of their own decision to back out on their own.

Yes, it's bad for those who are not particularly travel experienced and may have had non-refundable hotel reservations.  I travel enough I am in the camp where I never pick that rate, it's worth the extra money for me in case something personal happens that causes me to want to back out.

As for refunds of admission/table fees, as a single table holder, I'm perfectly willing to donate my $35 to the EDTCA if it helps.  I'm sure there were many costs still involved even though the meet is cancelled. 

-Dave

Ron045 posted:..............................….Go run your trains and stop buying toilet paper.

Have Fun!

Ron

 

Ron there's no toilet paper to be bought.

.

Unless you're a red neck.

The irony here is that OGR leadership benefits directly from York as an event at which to promote their magazine to the thousands of TCA members and guests who attend, but they have no issue taking "pot shots" at the organization that sponsors it!!

I think the Eastern Division played this one just right. If they cancelled before York Fair pulled the plug, they may have had to pay 75% of the costs of the Fairground building rentals and staff.

Greg Houser posted:

I spoke with my Primary Care Physician regarding the virus and he indicated it is similar to the flu making it primarily a cold weather virus.

-Greg

 

This is the most irresponsible statement in this thread.  I hope that no one takes it seriously!

I think the ED did the right thing. I don’t see how it would have helped anyone to be safer by canceling last week. I also agree that there are contractual issues involved here that we don’t know what they are. The ED and TCA aren’t exactly swimming in cash. They can’t afford to lose large sums of money. Whether it was last week or next week no TCA member will be exposed to the virus at the fairgrounds but the organization that some of us care deeply for won’t needlessly be put in a large hole. 

Yes maybe some folks have non refundable travel plans and I feel bad for those folks but I am sure that even they would want the ED of the TCA to endure so that we will someday have the York meet again.