How are the quality of Gargraves switches? I see I can get them on eBay fairly cheap compared to Ross. I will be using manual switches with ground throws only so remote switch machines are not even considered.
I am on a budget so price matters! Even if I can save 10-15 bucks per switch will go a long way with the layout.
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Use Ross, even if you buy used Ross. IMO, its not even a comparison.
Boilermaker1 posted:Use Ross, even if you buy used Ross. IMO, its not even a comparison.
Okay but why? Have you used both? What about the Gargraves is not good?
My friend Tom had used Gargraves switches that we installed on his layout. We used DZ1000 switch motors.
Ross switch(es) (left), Gargraves switch(es) (right).
Note the small piece of green wire used to power the center switch section. We powered this section another way. Again pictured, is used Ross and Gargraves equipment.
Additional pictures.
We wired both the Ross and Gargraves for non-derail and added the indication lights pictured.
Note the DZ 1008 relays,( black squares, marked 3 & 4), that power the indication lights, (Black cylinders marked 3 & 4), far right center/bottom in this picture.
You gotta love this stuff
Best wishes with your project.
Mike CT. 
Recent pictures of Tom's layout.
About 90% of the track on my layout is Gargraves . Both Gargraves and Ross Switches are used on my layout. Occasionally you will get a Gargraves switch that needs some minor tweaks to work but its still a satisfactory product. On the other hand Ross always works perfect when installed, looks much nicer (uses individual ties), the trains travel over them smoother and you can get a version that has the track power routed through the switch. Its like comparing the Chevy to the Cadillac. Both will take you where you want to go but one gives a quieter, smoother ride and looks nicer. At this point Ross is my only choice on switches while Gargraves track is my main source.
I use mostly Gargraves switches on my layout. I use Ross switches where there is no Gargraves to suit my needs (for example curved switches). Some folks will say only get Ross switches (never Gargraves switches), but if cost is a consideration, Gargraves is a good option. Ross switches are definitely better than Gargraves. They are more realistic with wooden ties as opposed to the Gargraves plastic base. But if you are going to ballast your track, the plastic base all but disappears. With Gargraves you may have an occasional derailment with some steam engines. With Ross, derailments are extremely rare…almost never. Also, the older style Gargraves switches with the sheet metal points (like the one in Mike CTs post) will tend to give more trouble than the newer style with solid metal points. I do still have some with the sheet metal points and some are trouble free, but I also have replaced many of them with the newer style. If you are buying used, look for ones with the solid points, avoid ones with the sheet metal points. I use DZ1000s for most of my switches, a few still have an NJI machine, and on a few, I use the caboose ground throw. The caboose ground throw is a good way to go for manual operation.
Gargraves is junk, you'll have nothing but issues, sparking, derailments, etc, etc. (taken from experience). Ross are hassle free, smooth, and nice looking.. If you are running 1500 engines spend what it takes for issue free running.
Gargraves switches have a vacuum formed base which make them feel flimsy when mounted to the layout. You can see it in the pics above. I run a wide 'age' range trains from early tinplate to modern, and found the large gears and wide wheel flanges of tinplate have problems running through Gargraves switches.
My solution? I ripped the Gargraves switches apart and built my own switches from scratch from the pieces. But that's another story...........
I have used gar graves track since 1967, dating myself. At that time I used their switches. I found the only trouble I had with them was backing up a long string of cars through them. In the eighties I discovered Ross switches. They are the Cadillac of switches, in my opinion. They are more expensive. I am on a budget like you. Retired on a fixed income. But since I began long ago replacing gar graves switches with Ross switches I have never been happier in their operation. But gar graves has made improvements to their switches over the years so I cannot tell you about them now. Like I say Ross is more expensive but operation wise I think you would be happier in the long run.....Paul
I jumped into fastrack over my head, it works well but everyone knows it makes NOISE! After jumping in with both feet I have watched hundreds super layout videos concerning track. 99% of them are using Gargrave's track and Ross switches. If I had it to do over again (and just might) I'd use Gargrave's track and Ross switches : )
Jim
Know this: The power on a GARGRAVES switch does NOT pass through--travel end to end.
ROSS switches the power passes through.
It makes a big difference in wiring.
Ross is the "ROLLS ROYCE" of switches period. The best.
Gargraves makes a good product for the money. I started with Gargraves, like you because of the money.
Now, I'm sorry because as I replace, I go with Ross. It would have been smarter and cheaper in the long run to go with Ross first.
Also, Ross has ties throughout a switch.
Gargraves has a black plastic base.
If cost is a factor, that's another reason to buy Ross.....for you WILL eventually swap the GG switches for Ross switches. I can all but promise you that.
No contest, ROSS all the way. We use Ross switches at the NJ Hirailers Club exclusively. They take quite a pounding, probably more than a lifetime on a home layout and hold up well.
John,
ROSS switches the power passes through.
Actually, I believe that Ross switches come both ways. The "Ross Ready" line switches that come with motors have all 3 center rails connected while their other switches do not.
I may be mistaken, however, I believe that the Gargraves switcheswith motors also have (or at one time had) all 3 center rails connected.
Besides the quality and performance Ross switches offer you lifetime service. If you break a throw bar for example, you send the switch back to Steve at Ross Custom Switches and he will fix it for no charge and even pay for its return to you. I have used Ross switches for 30 years and they are flawless. Used with Tortoise switch machines you have the best combination going. The ties are wood and individually spiked.
How are the quality of Gargraves switches? I see I can get them on eBay fairly cheap compared to Ross.
I will be using manual switches with ground throws only so remote switch machines are not even considered.
I am on a budget so price matters! Even if I can save 10-15 bucks per switch will go a long way with the layout.
NOT really. 
As the saying goes, you get what you paid for! I had bad experiences with Gargraves switches. From the flexible vaccum formed corrugated base to the misalignment of the plastic frog to the rails to the thin rivits on the throwbar that wear out quickly as cheese in a microwave! 
Oh and don't forget the sparing use of staples to hold the "rails down" on the corrugated plastic too!
You can FEEL the difference. Just take a freightcaror passenger car and roll it over each switch. I will guarantee you can feel the difference; on a Ross the smoothness of the frog vs. the bounciness/ rough ride of a Gargraves switch!
If you are spending hundreds of dollars on rolling stock and locomotives and power systems[ DCS, Legacy, TMCC, etc.] none of that will matter if your foundation [table and track structures] are crap! Stop for a while of buying the latest rolling stock and invest in your track system/foundation. You can always find the freight cars/passenger cars/ die cast cars and trucks later on [and maybe cheaper too
] cause the hunt can be as exciting than the actual purchase!
If you are looking to buy on the cheap, good luck with GG switches. for serious builders Ross is the only way to go. Remember the old saying about how you only get what you pay for. If you want to build a trouble free layout, use Ross.
The backbone of a good layout is good track work and good wiring.
I too started out with Gargraves switches on a layout that I built with my brother over 15 years ago. And for 15 years things never ran correctly. Stalls on the switches, derailments in any direction. I was about to tear down the whole thing and finally decided to replace the Gargraves with Ross switches about 4 months ago. I can't believe the difference this made! The layout is finally usable after 15 years!
IN my experience, buying Gargraves switches, and you will throw away good money. Go with Ross from the beginning and be confident that you won't be spending money twice for faulty switches. Learn from my mistakes.
Perfectly said, EngineerJon.
It is not even close. I sold all of my Gargraves switches, and installed Ross. The difference is amazing. After derailments, sparking, etc. and having to fiddle with Gargraves switches, to get them to operate properly, I went with Ross. I did not want to fry any boards by running the engines (particularly the scale steam engines), through Gargraves.
Mike CT posted:
Having helped my father with his layout, 2000 to present, I have a fair bit of experience with the Gargraves switch in the lower right of this photo. This is an older type, and will probably be the cheapest to acquire. I would say that they are adequate in low-speed situations, maybe in high-speed applications, if the diverging route is not used at speed. Even at low speed, a scale Hudson or Mike taking the diverging route on one of these is a sight to behold, and not in a good way.
If you use these, prepare to deal with the following problems:
As much trouble as these have been, if we were to do it over again, we would still use them, at least in the yard, where the turnouts really add up. But I would keep them off the mainline if I could.
I should add that the newer Gargraves switches (easily spotted because they have silver-colored points, whether stamped or cast) have been pretty much trouble-free, though I would still take Ross over them if I had my druthers.
That was a great reply. I agree and would only add that the new Gargraves switches are a bit better in rail alignment. Avoid the older ones. The GG frogs have the Pot hole gap that I tend to avoid.
If you are serious about your layout and want to run trouble free running trains. I would invest in Ross upfront.
If you have switches that are in a yard or have slow speeds on them you may get by with the GG.
One last note is I have burned up a few circuit boards on GG switches in some expensive TMCC and Legacy engines, so watch out... you may be penny wise but dime foolish.
I have no problem using GarGraves track, but I use only Ross Switches or Curtis HiRail switches (out of business now for about 10 years but beautiful devices).
I would echo the previous posts about trouble-free operation over time. If you have to replace a GarGraves switch, you've lost the savings.
Reliability trumps all.
George
If I may back up a bit and make a final comment. In recent years the Gargraves product has improved and they are now more reliable. However, the type of engines that you run over these switches can determine whether they will work reliably or not work at all. If you have a problem be prepared to get out the file, pliers and soldering iron to make some adjustments. On the other hand Ross has worked all the time, every time, the engines run more smoothly over them and they look nicer. If you want to use what the professionals use, Ross is the ticket.
There is a reason I use ONLY Ross products for my switches and crossovers. Everyone else has pretty much covered all the reasons here!
Go with Ross. You will be glad that you did. You don't want to step over dollars to pickup dimes. It only costs a little more to go first class.
Barry Broskowitz posted:John,
ROSS switches the power passes through.
Actually, I believe that Ross switches come both ways. The "Ross Ready" line switches that come with motors have all 3 center rails connected while their other switches do not.
I may be mistaken, however, I believe that the Gargraves switcheswith motors also have (or at one time had) all 3 center rails connected.
Barry: I know Ross has had both....most it passes through...I have several.
Gargraves....I have 40+....these are all "dead" end to end.
I use Ross and will not bash Gargraves. They have been around many years and I'm sure there are many Ogaugers that have enjoyed the switches from Gargraves.
Rod Miller
A few years back I saw a vehicle on the streets of New Orleans with the logo "good work ain't cheap, cheap work ain't good". Yes you can save a few bucks with gargraves however, Ross switches perform flawlessly. I went your route when first building the layout, I have replaced the GG switches with Ross in all of the high traffic areas. GG switches live on in places on the layout and from time to time are problematic. If you must go with the 0-100. I have both the 0-100 and 0-42 on the layout, my rolling stock and some locos tend to bounce through the frog with the 0-42. And I am still trying to figure out why some locos short in the yard lead that consists of 0-100's. None of the Ross switches are as fussy.
It's not that Gargraves sucks or is terrible. That's not the case at all. Far from it.
Rather, it's that Ross is vastly superior.....while only costing a little more upfront. However, many people wind up replacing their GG with Ross over time.
So why through the money out when you don't have to?
Thanks guys.
I did pick up a few Gargraves switches on eBay for very cheap but I guess I will order some Ross ones. I had ross switches in the past and yes they worked very well.
FWIW, on our club Hi-rail layout we use Ross switches almost exclusively. We tried a few Atlas switches that had to be tweaked to work reliably.
We did have a problematic Ross curved, large radius turnout, but one of our genius club members modified it to have a movable frog point driven by the switch machine.
I have a policy I try very hard to follow. Do a job one time and do it right. Right in this post is Ross. If you pay cheap money, you get a cheap switch.
I had Gargraves switches and was just in the beginning of my build. It ended there as I kept having problems, I replaced with gargraves problems went away. I also been told that gargraves track need to be flat on a surface. I had mine on carpet and had problems, Ross had no problems there at all.
In long run ross will save you money. I know you say you're going to go manual all the way. but I would consider getting with the motor if you just get the DZ1000
I had the older Gargraves switches two layouts back. About 15 years ago. I had some problems with them so pulled all of them and went with Ross. They are not only better but you can get a huge number of different types of switches. Using a four way Ross switch saves a lot of space in a yard for example. Curved switches are great and work well on a layout. If you are on a budget I do hear Gargraves has improved but like Marty said, don't buy older used ones. Don
Mike CT posted:My friend Tom had used Gargraves switches that we installed on his layout. We used DZ1000 switch motors.
Ross switch(es) (left), Gargraves switch(es) (right).
Note the small piece of green wire used to power the center switch section. We powered this section another way. Again pictured, is used Ross and Gargraves equipment.
Additional pictures.
We wired both the Ross and Gargraves for non-derail and added the indication lights pictured.
Note the DZ 1008 relays,( black squares, marked 3 & 4), that power the indication lights, (Black cylinders marked 3 & 4), far right center/bottom in this picture.
Best wishes with your project.
Mike CT.
Recent pictures of Tom's layout.
Just a quick question, where did he get his indication lights?
thanks
A lot of mixed emotions here, I really can't offer my opinion yet as I have only used Ross for a little bit and have not hooked up my switches to fiddle with them. This is mainly because of time constraints at the moment. I am hoping that maybe by the end of this year things will change and I can comment about my use of Ross.
"Just a quick question, where did he get his indication lights?"
Don't know, I will ask.
Tom's response, this morning. "I got most of the Dwarf Signals from Tom S., and at least one from Danny C. at the Station last summer. They are all, Rite of Way, no longer manufactured. They turn up at train shows".
Surprisingly easy to wire, all but one worked as it was suppose to. Note the Yellow diagonal light center of picture.
Mike CT.
I have the newer variety Gargraves in my 3 track yard and Ross switches on my main lines. The Ross switches work extremely well. The Gargraves switches work well most of the time, but the trains do sometimes bump through them. Occasionally, there is a derailment on the Gargraves switches, usually when backing a train into a yard track.
All of my switches are manual. Neither the Ross nor the Gargraves were wired and both contained instruction sheets to assist with that process. As others have commented above, you can buy Ross Ready switches which are wired and have the switch machine. Wiring the manual switches takes some thought and some dexterity. I used wires with small flat blade connectors on one end that Gargraves sells. I just pushed the flat blade into the ends of the rails and dropped the wire through a small hole I drilled. There are also power and ground drops to the tracks on either side of the switches on the main lines.
The Gargraves switches come with the ground throw installed on one side of the switch. Due to clearance issues I had to move two ground throws to the opposite side of the switch. Gargraves sells a little tie extension that you can use for this purpose. The Ross switches have extended ties on both sides and you mount the ground throw on the side you choose and then can cut the ties on the other side if you like.
If I had unlimited funds, I would have all Ross switches the on layout, but for the yard (8 switches) the Gargraves are acceptable. I'd definitely go with Ross on my main lines.
This is a pretty good video of Ross switches, working well with a small diesel switcher. Unfortunately these #4 and #5 switches are a bit tight for some of the longer cars and trains. IMO. We (Fort Pitt High Railers) have found that #6 and #8 switches seem to be a bit more friendly, especially for high speed cross overs. There is a lot to the switch thing. IMO. Mouse over and click on the image triangle for a video.
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