GG1 with Minor Zinc Rot

MTH or VL?

I will not name the manufacturer as I do not want to start a war. 

Somebody needs to say "in model railroading, there's a prototype for everything, if you look long enough".

So - the "rot" is possibly a feature, rather than a problem - am I right? 

It appears that the "Standard of the World" was a real trend setter way before it's time. 

Looks like someone got a little carried away with the "corrosive lubricant".

The MU connection cover has zinc pest

Nothing a little duct tape and paint couldn't fix.  Maybe some Flex Seal too.

Jonathan, if you use the flex seal we could take it out on the lake n go fishing

Matt Makens posted:

Jonathan, if you use the flex seal we could take it out on the lake n go fishing

That would be an original use for a GG1

GG1 4877 posted:

Matt Makens posted:

Jonathan, if you use the flex seal we could take it out on the lake n go fishing

That would be an original use for a GG1

It floats!       As long as the water doesn't reach the headlight.  

Just coat that with the Flex Seal too

Maybe I could sell it to the North Korean Navy.  It could head up their submarine fleet.

And I thought this post was about the K-Line Penn 4912 GG1 that is noted for zinc pest on the truck sides.  Luckily Lionel GG1 truck sides fit and solved the problem.

Charlie

Too Funny,  

Its very sad to see such an iconic engine left in such disrepair . Very sad ! I wonder why everyone who has responded to this thread probably has never seen any of these brutes actually run the NorthEast Corridor in their lifetime , but find it necessary to poke fun at it . very sad !!!

Summerdale Junction posted:

Its very sad to see such an iconic engine left in such disrepair . Very sad ! I wonder why everyone who has responded to this thread probably has never seen any of these brutes actually run the NorthEast Corridor in their lifetime , but find it necessary to poke fun at it . very sad !!!

You couldn't be more wrong. The GG1 is my favorite locomotive.  I rode behind my first one in 1975 under PC and rode the last ride of the GG1 in 1983 behind 4877 when I was only 14.  I have over 60 GG1s in scale O, HO and N scale that date from 1935 to the present.  16 are scale O. I  was the design consultant to 3rd Rail for their amazing brass riveted GG1 4800 and welded production models.  Of the 17 existing GG1s, 4932 as pictured in this photo is only a step ahead of GG1 4876 slowly rotting away at the B&O museum which was among the last 13 operational GG1s.  4935 is the best preserved in Strasburg.

Before you judge others, perhaps you should learn the definition of sarcasm. You might be taking your hobby too seriously.

Here is my photo of GG1 4859 at Harrisburg in 2016 when I took Amtrak to NYC after a York meet.  While not completely accurate due to it's dulux paint in lieu of the gold leaf that the Futura scheme had, it is the lowest numbered GG1 besides the Riveted 4800 and the only surving example of one with a solid pilot in lieu of the later drop coupler pilot.

Jonathan,

If you're a collector of GG1s, have you seen the S Scale ones made by American Models?  Nicely done, and reasonably priced.  Here's a link: http://www.americanmodels.com/locos/gg-1.html

You KNOW you need one!

Summerdale Junction posted:

Its very sad to see such an iconic engine left in such disrepair . Very sad ! I wonder why everyone who has responded to this thread probably has never seen any of these brutes actually run the NorthEast Corridor in their lifetime , but find it necessary to poke fun at it . very sad !!!

Yea, you are right.  Cut it up and turn it into razor blades.  Can't save every rusting piece of junk.  Or, perhaps, you could shell out your own money and purchase it. Might only cost you a big pile of cash to make the special move on a flatbed truck to your property, where it could rust.  Or, perhaps, you could spend YOUR money to restore it once you have control of it.  

Not everybody is a SPF.  As you can tell from my handle, I couldn't care less about a GG1.  There is one at the Pennsy museum in Strasburg. Been there, saw it.  Nicely restored.  Don't need to save any more. 

GNNPNUT

Its very sad to see such an iconic engine left in such disrepair . Very sad ! I wonder why everyone who has responded to this thread probably has never seen any of these brutes actually run the NorthEast Corridor in their lifetime , but find it necessary to poke fun at it . very sad !!!

I'd see GG1's from time to time when they were still in service and think they are cool.
But every one cannot be saved
And I see no point in putting a shell of a GG1 back in service with modern guts.

Yes, I agree, it's sad to see these beautiful icons of history rust away, and it's great that our toy train manufacturers,  so to speak, are making beautiful replica's of these famous engines of the past.  In particular my favorite is the Lionel VisionLine GG1's....Great thread....I like visiting the museum in Strasburg, Pa...

Summerdale Junction, I understand your concern for the preservation of such locomotives but I ask you , what have you done to contribute to railway history and preservation? Do you volunteer at your preservation society or transportation museum? Do you make donations to to any of those? I do not have much time to volunteer these days but I have put my Engineer Charlie Brown on display at the MN Transportation Museums Jackson Street Round House. He as been put a local scavenger hunt and he helps to bring in hundreds of visitors a year which have to pay admission to get in. I always try to ride the excursion trains as these are revenue generators, and in the future, when I have more time, I hope to volunteer my time and talents to help restore some of the equipment. The simple fact of the matter is there are a lot of things out there that should be saved, we should be thankful for all of the things we can save and unless we all do our part more and more things will be lost to the scrap heap. So how do you contribute to saving these things?

No Zinc rot on this one, Saw it last weekend in N.J. 

Me too.  In the early to mid 1970's while riding the New York and Long Branch from the Jersey Shore town of Belmar up to Manhattan a GG1 always went on the head end in Northern New Jersey to get us under the Hudson River and into Penn Station.   One time while they were switching power I exited the heavyweight commuter coach I was in and walked up to the head end and had a good visit with the engineer on the platform while they were switching power.  Shoulda asked for a cab ride.  Those GG1's had seen better days.  They were all painted in dull (weathered) black and had lots of dents and such.  But, they were still beautiful and unique.

Left Penn Station and walked down to Madison Hardware and picked up a Lionel baby Hudson that day.  The fun you could have.  GG1's and Madison Hardware!!! 

Hilarious!!! Thanks for the laughs. 

Perhaps it is the design of the GG1 which has kept it in the limelight, so to speak.  There are few designs in railroading, that have had long lived lifetimes, albeit in model trains as the GG1, the F3 and Dreyfus Hudson.  It's only recently that the symbol for a train on commuter lines has been changed to the face of the typical commuter car.  Before that the F3 face was prominent.  

As for the GG1, I cannot think of another electric locomotive, designed in the early '30s, that would still fit in today's world of railroad designs.  The E60s, a box on wheels.  Even the much liked AEM7s, still a box on wheels, although a nicer looking box than the E60.  The European designs are an upside down bathtub, in my opinion.  

So to those that could care less if all of the GG1s rotted away, I say what if we let all history just pass into oblivion, what then ?

Dan Padova posted:

So to those that could care less if all of the GG1s rotted away, I say what if we let all history just pass into oblivion, what then ?

Hmmm, let me offer a suggestion, build or buy models of them? 

The diversity of equipment in the United States is far too great to save every representative example of motive power.  I got curious, so I looked to see just how many GG-1s are preserved.   Of course, Wikipedia pops up, and as we all know, Wikipedia is never wrong, right?    Were there other better preservation candidates, youbetya.  I don't like then that much either, but a NYC Niagara, or Hudson comes to mind.  

Yup everybody, step right up with your pile of cash, rust is waiting for a bit of naval jelly and Rust-Oleum.  Want to make new body panels, bring more cash. 

Think you can stuff modern guts into it and take it for a ride?  Where?   If that is your desire, you would be better urinating into the wind.  You will get yellow shoes, and you will smell bad, but at least you will feel better. 

For me, I'll follow Matt's advice, I'll spend money on excursions.  June with the wife and son in Portland riding the 4449 for two days, and other excursions on  a couple of other steam excursion railroads (Mount Rainier Scenic, did that before, twice, and Chehalis western, which I've never been on).  Considering a donation to the Duluth and North Shore for tickets on the inaugural run of #28, but need to consult with my Chief Financial Officer on that, since it may impact the Spokane Southern's 1952 capital investments.    Two years ago, 765 and 611.  Year before that, Cumbres and Toltec, and Durango and Silverton. 

As far as volunteering at a museum, well, count me out.  Far more interesting and rewarding things to do in retirement.  

Regards,

GNNPNUT

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Fifteen production locomotives and the prototype were preserved in museums. None are operational, due to difficulties with running their transformers.  Quoted info below courtesy of Wikipedia. 

 

 

• PRR/PC/CR 4800 — Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, Strasburg, Pennsylvania (nicknamed "Old Rivets")
• PRR/PC/CR 4859 — Transportation Center, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania (designated Pennsylvania state electric locomotive in 1987)
• PRR/PC/CR/NJT 4876 — B&O Railroad Museum, Baltimore, Maryland
• PRR/PC/CR/NJT 4877 — United Railroad Historical Society of New Jersey, Boonton, New Jersey (nicknamed "Big Red")
• PRR/PC/CR/NJT 4879 — United Railroad Historical Society of New Jersey, Boonton, New Jersey
• PRR/PC/CR/NJT 4882 — National New York Central Railroad Museum, Elkhart, Indiana (currently painted in Penn Central colors)
• PRR/Amtrak 4890 — National Railroad Museum, Green Bay, Wisconsin
• PRR 4903/Amtrak (4)906 — Museum of the American Railroad, Frisco, Texas (pulled Robert Kennedy's funeral train with GG1 4901 from New York to Washington on June 8, 1968).^[31]
• PRR 4909/Amtrak 4932 — Leatherstocking Railway Museum, Cooperstown Junction, New York (purchased by The Henry Ford)^[32]
• PRR 4913/Amtrak (4)913 — Railroaders Memorial Museum, Altoona, Pennsylvania
• PRR 4917/Amtrak 4934 — Leatherstocking Railway Museum, Cooperstown Junction, New York^[32]
• PRR 4918/Amtrak (4)916 — Museum of Transportation, St. Louis, Missouri (was once the property of the Smithsonian Institution).
• PRR 4919/Amtrak (4)917 — Virginia Museum of Transportation, Roanoke, Virginia
• PRR 4927/Amtrak 4939 — Illinois Railway Museum, Union, Illinois
• PRR 4933/Amtrak (4)926 — Central New York Chapter of the National Railroad Historical Society, Syracuse, New York. It has been cosmetically restored and is on display at the NYS Fairgrounds Historic Train Exhibit.
• PRR 4935 / Amtrak 4935 — Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, Strasburg, Pennsylvania (nicknamed "Blackjack")

As long as we're debating the merits of saving a GG1 and other locomotives for that matter, I have one criticism of the Pennsy.  GNNPNUT posted the photo of GG1 #4890.  During a freak snowstorm, the fine snow of this particular storm made it's way through the linen filters of the air intakes on the sides of the GG1 body.  It was determined that the snow became the culprit at the same height off the ground as the air intakes were.  So the Pennsy relocated these intakes to a higher level on the car body.  This happened while the Pennsy was still the "Standard Railroad of the World".

Wouldn't you think that a bit more thought would have gone into the design of these new air intakes ?   If Raymond Lowey was able to design a graceful intake why couldn't the replacements have followed the contour of the area where they were placed ? 

Zinc pest

Parasitic Fig Wasps use Zinc-Tipped Ovipoistor

Dan Padova posted:

As long as we're debating the merits of saving a GG1 and other locomotives for that matter, I have one criticism of the Pennsy.  GNNPNUT posted the photo of GG1 #4890.  During a freak snowstorm, the fine snow of this particular storm made it's way through the linen filters of the air intakes on the sides of the GG1 body.  It was determined that the snow became the culprit at the same height off the ground as the air intakes were.  So the Pennsy relocated these intakes to a higher level on the car body.  This happened while the Pennsy was still the "Standard Railroad of the World".

Wouldn't you think that a bit more thought would have gone into the design of these new air intakes ?  

Not really. Living in New Jersey at the time, I remember that particular storm/blizzard. All the weather reports were all about it being a "freak storm", which produced VERY fine snow with VERY cold/dry temperatures (similar to North Dakota or Montana). Such unusual weather conditions had not been seen prior to that 1950s blizzard, nor not since. That storm shut down the whole PRR four track main line, now called the Northeast Corridor.

If Raymond Lowey was able to design a graceful intake why couldn't the replacements have followed the contour of the area where they were placed ? 

Matt Makens posted:

 I have put my Engineer Charlie Brown on display at the MN Transportation Museums Jackson Street Round House. He as been put a local scavenger hunt and he helps to bring in hundreds of visitors a year which have to pay admission to get in.

Jon, where did you find that picture? I want to put him in the basement but his hat wont fit down the stairs

Hot Water posted:

Dan Padova posted:

As long as we're debating the merits of saving a GG1 and other locomotives for that matter, I have one criticism of the Pennsy.  GNNPNUT posted the photo of GG1 #4890.  During a freak snowstorm, the fine snow of this particular storm made it's way through the linen filters of the air intakes on the sides of the GG1 body.  It was determined that the snow became the culprit at the same height off the ground as the air intakes were.  So the Pennsy relocated these intakes to a higher level on the car body.  This happened while the Pennsy was still the "Standard Railroad of the World".

Wouldn't you think that a bit more thought would have gone into the design of these new air intakes ?  

Not really. Living in New Jersey at the time, I remember that particular storm/blizzard. All the weather reports were all about it being a "freak storm", which produced VERY fine snow with VERY cold/dry temperatures (similar to North Dakota or Montana). Such unusual weather conditions had not been seen prior to that 1950s blizzard, nor not since. That storm shut down the whole PRR four track main line, now called the Northeast Corridor.

If Raymond Lowey was able to design a graceful intake why couldn't the replacements have followed the contour of the area where they were placed ? 

 

I understand the need to move the intakes.  What I don't get is the failure to make them aesthetically pleasing.  The railroad didn't even try to follow the graceful lines of the upper car body.  Lowey's design is almost invisible.  I think the same logic could have been followed when designing the new intakes.

Some who have responded to this thread pointed out that trying to save every bit of railroad history is unrealistic.  I agree.  However, if the Union Pacific can do it, then surely other first class railroads should have done it.  It seems the Pennsylvania RR may have done a better job preserving a few items than the New York Central.  Wasn't the K4 at Horseshoe Curve placed there by the Pennsy ?  Not one Hudson was saved from the scrapper by NYC's leadership.  I don't believe even the Dreyfus Hudson is in any museum, correct me if I am mistaken.  

The one major boner pulled by the Standard Railroad of the World was the demolition of Penn Station.   I still cringe when I see documentaries about it, mainly because most of my career was in historic restoration.   

The PRR of the mid to late 50's was not the PRR of the 30's.  Aesthetics had little if anything to do with their decision making.  Deferred maintenance and quick repairs ruled the shops, not design.  Not all intake modifications were the same though.  The one with the FARR filters is the most visible one, but many had lesser modifications that weren't apparent.  4876 is an example of one such modification.  And speaking of a little zinc rot....

Matt Makens posted:

Jon, where did you find that picture? I want to put him in the basement but his hat wont fit down the stairs

The kid's name is Peter. He has posed with Peanut statues around the Twin Cities. I'll forward the link to you. As for putting that in your basement, I'm glad that it wont fit. I don't want to help you move it.

Charlie only weighs like 70 pounds, he's actually pretty light, that concrete base weighs a fricken ton. Of all the Charlie Browns Around Town, he is far and away the coolest one

Matt Makens posted:

Charlie only weighs like 70 pounds, he's actually pretty light, that concrete base weighs a fricken ton.

It's that base that got my attention...

Dan Padova posted:

Some who have responded to this thread pointed out that trying to save every bit of railroad history is unrealistic.  I agree.  However, if the Union Pacific can do it, then surely other first class railroads should have done it.  It seems the Pennsylvania RR may have done a better job preserving a few items than the New York Central.  Wasn't the K4 at Horseshoe Curve placed there by the Pennsy ?  Not one Hudson was saved from the scrapper by NYC's leadership.  I don't believe even the Dreyfus Hudson is in any museum, correct me if I am mistaken.  

The one major boner pulled by the Standard Railroad of the World was the demolition of Penn Station.   I still cringe when I see documentaries about it, mainly because most of my career was in historic restoration.   

Never understood the railfan view that a privately owned railroad company somehow has the obligation to keep around their old worn out junk for posterity.   These are for-profit businesses, and when steam was going through its last throes, or for that matter when the GG-1s were wearing the PC noodle in the late 60s thru Conrail, most of the railroads east of Chicago, and north of the Mason-Dixon line, were in financial ruins.  

No private company has any obligation to save anything.  We could have nationalized the railroads in the late 1950s and 1960s as was discussed, and then we would be an overly large equivalent of the UK, and much like Canada, which had a coast to coast nationalized railroad (and a significant amount of their steam and early diesel was preserved).  And we, the taxpayers, can pay for all the inefficiencies that government ownership of freight railroads brings. 

Emigrate to Canada, let me know how you enjoy their personal tax structure.  Even Alberta, which used to be staunchly conservative, with lower tax rates, and offered a provincial surplus, is being driven right into the ditch by Rachel Notley and the NDP party. 

No thanks. 

GNNPNUT

Dan Padova posted:

 

I understand the need to move the intakes.  What I don't get is the failure to make them aesthetically pleasing.  The railroad didn't even try to follow the graceful lines of the upper car body.  Lowey's design is almost invisible.  I think the same logic could have been followed when designing the new intakes.

Railroads seldom worry about esthetics when making mods:

Rusty