Hoping to find “Pullman Car Naming” experts to assist in my effort to determine the origin (or more appropriately, the historical reason) for the “Saints Series” names on my four Golden Gate Depot 21” 3-rail Pullman heavyweight 21/1 sleeper cars: St. Alexis, St. Albans. St. Anthony, St. Huberts.
(note: I recently contacted Scott Mann concerning a parts question and added the four Saint names question as an afterthought. Scott answered the parts question, but not the "Saints" question. With the amount of Saints Series information at hand, I decided not to follow up with another message.)
The four-car GGD saint named Pullman sleeper set was manufactured in the 1990s, and I though I have found some basic bio information the names of first three saints and located the them in the 12/1 Pullman sleeper car rosters, St. Huberts (if the name on the car is spelled correctly with the “s”) has thus far escaped search efforts. Additionally, when the initial search began revealing at least forty 12/1 sleeper cars (plan 3410) belonging to the Saint Series (manufactured between 1923 and 1924), I was struck by the number of medieval saints in the series. Why these particular names (some relatively obscure) and what criteria was used to determine eligibility to be added to the series?
I don't have access the Pullman car publications that probably contain the answer to the above questions and
my few books deal only with various passenger trains rather than individual cars. Thus, my current information has relied on internet sources. Some of sites refer to a Pullman Company committee of employees whose responsibility was car name designation for the sleepers, diners, observation, etc. cars produced in the 1920s and early 1930s - my time frame of interest. Apparently, one practice employed by the committee was creating name “series” which used groupings of cities/states, natural wonders/lakes/mountains, named dignitaries, animals, and so on. For some reason, to me, the “Saints Series” (Medieval saints) as a topic, stands out from the the other series categories. And when the number of saints stretched from four to forty, my interest evolved to the general question - was there any particular criteria governing the saint’s name selections?
For general information concerning this discussion, I have opted to list the 40 heavyweight car names found so far. Some are from Eric Neubauer’s list of Pullman Passenger cars, some from The NYC Passenger Car Roster, and some, from other sources. All are saint's names with the exception of "St. Croix", which translated from the French, means Holy Cross.
Note: For the NYC Pullman Saints list I have tried to identify some bio for the individual saint’s names. I can’t vouch for the accuracy
Pullman Passenger Car 12/1 Sleeper “Saints Series” (40 cars)
1. C&NW: St. Charles, St. Francis, St. Lawrence, St. James, St. Marie, St. Peter (6 cars)
2. General Service: St, Albans, St. Germain, St. Armand, St. Aubert, St. Ives, St. Regis, St. Cloud, St Victor, St. Elmo, St. George, St. Martins, St. Helier, St. Ignace, St. Pierre, St. Clair, St. Julian, St. Denis, St. Lucien, St. Malo, St. Helena, St. Nicholas, St. Pancras, St. Claude, St. Joseph, St. Thomas, St. Louis, St; Alexis, St. Anthony, St. Norbert, St. Bernard, St. Johns, St. Croix, St. Leonards (34 cars)
B. From the New York Central passenger car roster. (with the exception of St. Rose, the NYC cars are already named above under General Service Cars)
1. NYC 10774 – St. Germain 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 10/23 (Bishop of Paris died 576AD)
2. NYC 10775 – St. Martins 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 10/23 (Family Name in Gascony, France derived from St. Martinus, Bishop of Tours)
3. NYC 10872 – St. Anselme 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 2/24 (St. Alseme Archbishop of Leon (France) studied theology in England under St. Anselm of Canterbury). Died – 1117AD)
4. NYC 10873 – St. Claude 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 12/23 (Bishop of Besancon, France (Gaul) and Abbot of Condate Monastery. Died 699AD)
5. NYC 10874 – St. Croix 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 10/23 (French translation=Holy Cross. Name given to Caribbean Island discovered by Columbus in 1493AD)
6. NYC 10775 – St. Rose 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 3/23 (St. Rose of Viterbo (Italy). Died 1251AD
(note: If my list of the 40 Pullman sleeps id accurate, the St. Rose name is not listed)
Summary
Aside from gathering more"Saints Series" information, I hope this thread may help to establish:
1. Details concerning the methods involved in the "Saints Series” selection process.
2. Verification of the names and number of 12/1 heavyweight sleepers listed above in the CN&W and General Service listings. I.e., is forty the correct number?
3. Determining if the forty saint cars were all for domestic use and some not shipped to foreign countries.
4. Was the car St. Rose, which is not listed of the Pullman 12/1 (1923/24) production series, actually part of that production run
5. Was St. Huberts the correct name for a Pullman 12/1 sleeper (1923/24) production series. It is also not listed in the 1923/24 production run.
Thanks for your patience with the long thread and the incorrect information/assumptions contained therein.
(note: I recently contacted Scott Mann concerning a parts question and added the four Saint names question as an afterthought. Scott answered the parts question, but not the "Saints" question. With the amount of Saints Series information at hand, I decided not to follow up with another message.)
The four-car GGD saint named Pullman sleeper set was manufactured in the 1990s, and I though I have found some basic bio information the names of first three saints and located the them in the 12/1 Pullman sleeper car rosters, St. Huberts (if the name on the car is spelled correctly with the “s”) has thus far escaped search efforts. Additionally, when the initial search began revealing at least forty 12/1 sleeper cars (plan 3410) belonging to the Saint Series (manufactured between 1923 and 1924), I was struck by the number of medieval saints in the series. Why these particular names (some relatively obscure) and what criteria was used to determine eligibility to be added to the series?
I don't have access the Pullman car publications that probably contain the answer to the above questions and
my few books deal only with various passenger trains rather than individual cars. Thus, my current information has relied on internet sources. Some of sites refer to a Pullman Company committee of employees whose responsibility was car name designation for the sleepers, diners, observation, etc. cars produced in the 1920s and early 1930s - my time frame of interest. Apparently, one practice employed by the committee was creating name “series” which used groupings of cities/states, natural wonders/lakes/mountains, named dignitaries, animals, and so on. For some reason, to me, the “Saints Series” (Medieval saints) as a topic, stands out from the the other series categories. And when the number of saints stretched from four to forty, my interest evolved to the general question - was there any particular criteria governing the saint’s name selections?
For general information concerning this discussion, I have opted to list the 40 heavyweight car names found so far. Some are from Eric Neubauer’s list of Pullman Passenger cars, some from The NYC Passenger Car Roster, and some, from other sources. All are saint's names with the exception of "St. Croix", which translated from the French, means Holy Cross.
Note: For the NYC Pullman Saints list I have tried to identify some bio for the individual saint’s names. I can’t vouch for the accuracy
Pullman Passenger Car 12/1 Sleeper “Saints Series” (40 cars)
1. C&NW: St. Charles, St. Francis, St. Lawrence, St. James, St. Marie, St. Peter (6 cars)
2. General Service: St, Albans, St. Germain, St. Armand, St. Aubert, St. Ives, St. Regis, St. Cloud, St Victor, St. Elmo, St. George, St. Martins, St. Helier, St. Ignace, St. Pierre, St. Clair, St. Julian, St. Denis, St. Lucien, St. Malo, St. Helena, St. Nicholas, St. Pancras, St. Claude, St. Joseph, St. Thomas, St. Louis, St; Alexis, St. Anthony, St. Norbert, St. Bernard, St. Johns, St. Croix, St. Leonards (34 cars)
B. From the New York Central passenger car roster. (with the exception of St. Rose, the NYC cars are already named above under General Service Cars)
1. NYC 10774 – St. Germain 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 10/23 (Bishop of Paris died 576AD)
2. NYC 10775 – St. Martins 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 10/23 (Family Name in Gascony, France derived from St. Martinus, Bishop of Tours)
3. NYC 10872 – St. Anselme 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 2/24 (St. Alseme Archbishop of Leon (France) studied theology in England under St. Anselm of Canterbury). Died – 1117AD)
4. NYC 10873 – St. Claude 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 12/23 (Bishop of Besancon, France (Gaul) and Abbot of Condate Monastery. Died 699AD)
5. NYC 10874 – St. Croix 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 10/23 (French translation=Holy Cross. Name given to Caribbean Island discovered by Columbus in 1493AD)
6. NYC 10775 – St. Rose 12/1 sleeper. Manufactured 3/23 (St. Rose of Viterbo (Italy). Died 1251AD
(note: If my list of the 40 Pullman sleeps id accurate, the St. Rose name is not listed)
Summary
Aside from gathering more"Saints Series" information, I hope this thread may help to establish:
1. Details concerning the methods involved in the "Saints Series” selection process.
2. Verification of the names and number of 12/1 heavyweight sleepers listed above in the CN&W and General Service listings. I.e., is forty the correct number?
3. Determining if the forty saint cars were all for domestic use and some not shipped to foreign countries.
4. Was the car St. Rose, which is not listed of the Pullman 12/1 (1923/24) production series, actually part of that production run
5. Was St. Huberts the correct name for a Pullman 12/1 sleeper (1923/24) production series. It is also not listed in the 1923/24 production run.
Thanks for your patience with the long thread and the incorrect information/assumptions contained therein.
