GGD Superliners, Viewliners, and Amfleets

@ThatGuy posted:

While I love the new cars, at one time there was another company that built terrific aluminum fully detailed passenger cars………….Lionel. Long ago and far far away.

I loved the Lionel Superliners, but they were not scale length.   Much superior model to K-Line's Superliner.  They tinted dark windows were spot on.  Although they tended to pop out during shipping, easily fixed. 

@VistaDomeScott posted:

I loved the Lionel Superliners, but they were not scale length.   Much superior model to K-Line's Superliner.  They tinted dark windows were spot on.  Although they tended to pop out during shipping, easily fixed.

This is true but they were exactly one and a half inches short and the eye cannot see the difference. Since the Lionel cars have all the bells and whistles and we’re less than $200 apiece it’s a no-brainer for me. I learned a long time ago if it’s pleasing to the eye, it’s good. In G scale we call it the 4 foot rule if it looks good at 4 feet it’s good.

Maybe your eyes can't see the difference, but mine sure can!  Short passenger cars in any scale, Z, N, HO, O, or other really stand out to for me.  Even the Williams 20" cars feel too short.

Also, in today's market the Lionel cars would be priced at about the same price as the GGD cars.  They utilized similar tooling and construction techniques.  In 2012 when GGD offered the PS standard aluminum cars they were $149 each.  The El Capitan cars of 2016 were $200 each.  A function of the market that is true across the entire spectrum of the hobby. 

@VistaDomeScott posted:

As I transitioned to an all 21" fleet, the Lionel ones just didnt measure up for me.  They looked great otherwise.  I do wish I could turn off the lights in my GGD cars though.  My only suggestion for future runs of GGD.

A great suggestion.  It's funny because Scott used to be referred to as the "King of Darkness" during the early day of GGD cars because they were so dim and now with the new LED light bars the cars are so much brighter!  I wonder if there is a way to put a dimmer into these? 

If we're talking about improvements, I'd like to see rotating bearing caps on these and future GGD models where applicable. I'm sure it would be a design challenge, but seeing as others have risen to meet it, I'm sure GGD can as well.

Jonathan, I do like the dim lighting in my older GGD Amtrak coaches and Sleepers.  I guess we cannnot break the bulk of hobbiests from wanting full bright interiors. I had started a thread on my lighting ideas but deleted it until I could word it better as to not offend anyone.

@bigboy25 posted:

If we're talking about improvements, I'd like to see rotating bearing caps on these and future GGD models where applicable. I'm sure it would be a design challenge, but seeing as others have risen to meet it, I'm sure GGD can as well.

Funny my Lionel cars have them…..

@bigboy25 posted:

If we're talking about improvements, I'd like to see rotating bearing caps on these and future GGD models where applicable. I'm sure it would be a design challenge, but seeing as others have risen to meet it, I'm sure GGD can as well.

Would be great to see across the board! Few of my Lionel and Atlas cars do, but so many do not.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

Jonathan, I do like the dim lighting in my older GGD Amtrak coaches and Sleepers.  I guess we cannnot break the bulk of hobbiests from wanting full bright interiors. I had started a thread on my lighting ideas but deleted it until I could word it better as to not offend anyone.

I think it would be cool if the light was a color changing bulb like you see on Christmas trees. You could have the bulb off, clear (the normal ones the cars already), and a cool blueish color.  I don't know about sleeping cars, but in coach they have blue lights in the cars at night so you can see where you're walking, like on airplanes.

@ThatGuy posted:

Funny my Lionel cars have them…..

And they are still too short

@GG1 4877 posted:

And they are still too short

I love statements like that, since the human eye cannot discern at 3 ft a 1 or 2 inch difference. I would bet if a set was on a layout and you did not know the manufacturer you could not tell what size the cars are? That’s the 4 foot rule, if it looks good at 4 feet it’s good. 😊

PENNCENTRALSHOPS

@ThatGuy posted:

I love statements like that, since the human eye cannot discern at 3 ft a 1 or 2 inch difference. I would bet if a set was on a layout and you did not know the manufacturer you could not tell what size the cars are? That’s the 4 foot rule, if it looks good at 4 feet it’s good. 😊

PENNCENTRALSHOPS

It's a matter of proportion.  The height to length ratio is easily distinguishable to the trained eye.  Most modelers can see the difference of an 18" Superliner from across a room as the length has been shortened, but the height and the width have not.  The Lionel Amfleet cars are a different story as the height and cross section has been scaled down to match the reduced length of 19".  They look scale because the X, Y, & Z planes are all scaled relative to each other.  Of course, then pair those cars with a 1:48 scaled locomotive like the F40PH and it is easier to see that they are not 1:48 scale cars. 

I'm an architect so being visual and seeing detail has been part of my daily work for over 30 years.  When I was about 20 years old my father rebuilt the kitchen in the house I grew up in and I made a comment that the soffit above the cabinets wasn't even with the ceiling line.  He told me it was.  I got a tape measure out and it was off by 1/2" over 14 feet.  He wasn't happy with me, but it was pretty clear to my eye.  Having modeled passenger trains since age 12 originally in HO scale and later N scale before I discovered scale O, I quickly noticed that the Athearn streamlined cars I had were off compared to the real trains that ran by my house.  This is not a new thing for me.

Of course, I have an unfair advantage with all of the cars in the title of this thread.  I've been looking at scale drawings of some of these cars for close to five years and spent hundreds of hours checking, marking up, and rechecking PDF, CAD, and 3D computer models while creating all the master graphics for all the cars.

I'm happy you are pleased with your Lionel cars.  We all enjoy the hobby differently and there is no right or wrong.  However, you will find that most GGD customers look for the scale accuracy these cars provide because they can see the difference too.  That doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong, it just means they have slightly different interests in this very broad tent hobby.     

I love statements like people think other people look at models from 3-4 feet away. (Or if not they should, or must)  Many look at their models from a foot away or less at eye level, and can easily spot scale differences in regards to height width and length, and not just with the overall model but details too.  Plus many do measure out scale to much finer differences and this is where they get enjoyment.  For many, 4 feet is just to far away to enjoy their model.  But I'll put up an electronic fence around my models and make sure I approach no closer than 4 feet.

- Crank

Wow!

Wow is right! I have never seen such anger at just a simple statement, I nearly pointed out some facts. The human eye is handicapped to what it can discern at certain distances. This is not a criticism. This is not a criticism of what is and what is not scale. It’s just a fact. I was pointing out that I find it very funny that there was a company long ago that could really build nice cars. That of course was lost in the it has to be exact otherwise it’s not going to be correct, and the best part is as has always been in this Hobby there is a snob appeal.  I’m not saying that’s the case but it certainly sounds that way.

and by the way, the 4 foot rule is the distance Most people actually see their trains. With outdoor Trains we take for granted how we can fool the eye to see things that are not there or not see things.

@GG1 4877 posted:

It's a matter of proportion.  The height to length ratio is easily distinguishable to the trained eye.  Most modelers can see the difference of an 18" Superliner from across a room as the length has been shortened, but the height and the width have not.  The Lionel Amfleet cars are a different story as the height and cross section has been scaled down to match the reduced length of 19".  They look scale because the X, Y, & Z planes are all scaled relative to each other.  Of course, then pair those cars with a 1:48 scaled locomotive like the F40PH and it is easier to see that they are not 1:48 scale cars.

I'm an architect so being visual and seeing detail has been part of my daily work for over 30 years.  When I was about 20 years old my father rebuilt the kitchen in the house I grew up in and I made a comment that the soffit above the cabinets wasn't even with the ceiling line.  He told me it was.  I got a tape measure out and it was off by 1/2" over 14 feet.  He wasn't happy with me, but it was pretty clear to my eye.  Having modeled passenger trains since age 12 originally in HO scale and later N scale before I discovered scale O, I quickly noticed that the Athearn streamlined cars I had were off compared to the real trains that ran by my house.  This is not a new thing for me.

Of course, I have an unfair advantage with all of the cars in the title of this thread.  I've been looking at scale drawings of some of these cars for close to five years and spent hundreds of hours checking, marking up, and rechecking PDF, CAD, and 3D computer models while creating all the master graphics for all the cars.

I'm happy you are pleased with your Lionel cars.  We all enjoy the hobby differently and there is no right or wrong.  However, you will find that most GGD customers look for the scale accuracy these cars provide because they can see the difference too.  That doesn't mean they are right and you are wrong, it just means they have slightly different interests in this very broad tent hobby.     

By the way I enjoy the back-and-forth. The project I am looking forward to being involved with eventually will be the scale Metroliner cars. There are a lot of nuances to those cars and if asked, I will help Scott with them. I did have the privilege to take a few between New York and DC as a locomotive engineer and a funny thing with them is people will say now how wonderful they are when in truth they wrote like tanks and we were always surprised how people didn’t get sick constantly. Of course this was because the engineering department of the Pennsylvania road was afraid of the lightweight trucks so they specified heavier side frames, which caused the aluminum bodies to twist another little fun fact from the files of the Penn Central shops .

Short story.  I bought the KLine Superliner cars when they came out, but they never offered the car I considered the definitive one, the lounge.  So, when Lionel offered theirs, I bought the full set.  They were fine for a decade until GGD announce their Superliners.  An order immediately went in.  A six car train is now on my layout (getting more "peopled as passenger trains always run close to a sellout).  The Lionels are now in our Desert Division November auction.   my

The Superliners and Amfleets look fantastic on your layout Peter!  Extending Amtrak to Douglas was such a smart move to fill those trains. 

@ThatGuy posted:

By the way I enjoy the back-and-forth. The project I am looking forward to being involved with eventually will be the scale Metroliner cars. There are a lot of nuances to those cars and if asked, I will help Scott with them. I did have the privilege to take a few between New York and DC as a locomotive engineer and a funny thing with them is people will say now how wonderful they are when in truth they wrote like tanks and we were always surprised how people didn’t get sick constantly. Of course this was because the engineering department of the Pennsylvania road was afraid of the lightweight trucks so they specified heavier side frames, which caused the aluminum bodies to twist another little fun fact from the files of the Penn Central shops .

I too would love to see a Metroliner project get the green light. My beloved Williams Metroliners don't see much track time with all the digital do-dads running the rails now.

My dream would have been a 3rd Rail E60, but it just didn't have enough orders (I could only afford one). I understand that O-scale Amtrak is a bit of a niche inside of a niche. While I love the pulling power of my Williams E60s, none of my engines look more out of place -especially now that I have so many full-scale cars from Atlas and GGD. I ran #965 on the Silver Star when I received my first set of GGD Viewliners and it looked so weird I [very briefly] considered converting to HO. I got over that, but I don't run them on Silver Service trains anymore. They pull an MTH "Clockers" train and don't look that bad. I'd like to eventually sell off the Clockers cars.

While the Charm City Airline didn't have the funds to make a capital investment in the very impressive GGD Superliners due to our recent acquisition of additional GGD Viewliners, we were very happy to pick up some Lionel Superliners a GGD customer dumped on an auction site. Being an East Coast railroad, we only model one Superliner train: the Capitol Limited.  That's a very expensive 8or9 car train.

Hopefully, at a different point in my financial and professional journey, I'll be in a position to fund an equipment upgrade.

Very happy surprise is the red marker lights are illuminated on one end of the car only on the Superliners!   Viewliner & Amfleet both ends remain illuminated.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

Very happy surprise is the red marker lights are illuminated on one end of the car only on the Superliners!   Viewliner & Amfleet both ends remain illuminated.

Yes! I did sharpie over the ones on the non illuminated end just to eliminate any bleed through. On the Viewliners and Amfleets is just two screws to remove the end cap of the car and then just unplugging the jack for the lighting, so a couple minutes per car. Very easy and reversible fix.

Will, thanks for the tip on the viewliner amfleet. 

First run of the Golden Gate Depot phase 2 Superliners.  In spite of track being reworked and rewiring, here goes a set of brand new Superliners. 

I can’t wait to get mine!! It took me a little extra time to pay mine off, but I finally got it done last week and my cars are on the way to Me.  The pics & videos are absolutely fantastic! I have a phase III Superliner set with an extra sleeper coming, plus 5 Phase III viewliners coming.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

First run of the Golden Gate Depot phase 2 Superliners.  In spite of track being reworked and rewiring, here goes a set of brand new Superliners. 

Those are gorgeous! Wish I had been able to get those! That is the perfect consist for the Texas Eagle!

Is the baggage car by GGD too?

Ricky,

The baggage is Atlas O, Amtrak versions of the CZ cars.   

I used to ride the Texas Eagle thru to the Sunset Limited fairly often to Tucson.  For a while the TE consist and the Sunset Consist both had a dining car and a lounge car.  That was quite a train!  Remember when they changed the name to Texas Eagle from InterAmerican? 

I can easily tell the difference between an 18" and 21" car from much further than 4ft. It's one of those things that once you see it it's hard to not notice in the future. I'm not bashing the Lionel cars, they are fine, but they do look stubby. Same thing for any other passenger car. It becomes pretty obvious once you've seen the 21"

@GG1 4877 posted:

A great suggestion.  It's funny because Scott used to be referred to as the "King of Darkness" during the early day of GGD cars because they were so dim and now with the new LED light bars the cars are so much brighter!  I wonder if there is a way to put a dimmer into these?

It would be pretty simple to dim the cars as well as add a switch, just takes time for each car.   One of the key requirements for me when I was designing my little LED lighting module was the intensity adjustment feature.

@VistaDomeScott posted:

Ricky,

The baggage is Atlas O, Amtrak versions of the CZ cars.   

I used to ride the Texas Eagle thru to the Sunset Limited fairly often to Tucson.  For a while the TE consist and the Sunset Consist both had a dining car and a lounge car.  That was quite a train!  Remember when they changed the name to Texas Eagle from InterAmerican?

Thanks! I will have to look for one of those. I have the Williams phase 2 baggage and superliners. They just don't compare....

I bet was quite the train! I was a little kid back then but I do remember seeing the Inter-American with amfleets. Here's a picture my dad took of the Inter-American as it arrived into Austin before we road it to San Antonio in the winter of late 1979 or early 1980.

Nice shot of the InterAmerican.  It went Superliner sometime by 1981 so a rare picture of the Amfleet equipped version. Thanks for posting!

I have the Williams and K-Line Amtrak baggage cars also.  Actually the MTH 18" baggage cars work with 21" consists because a lot of baggage cars are not full length.  I hope GGD will offer a heritage baggage car in Amtrak.  They do have a variety of other cars offered for order with the Southern cars painted in Amtrak, but no baggage yet.

I have 18" baggage cars from MTH, K-Line, GGD, and Lionel all in Phase I paint and a Phase III painted Lionel version.  I need to remove the skirts from the Lionel Phase III car, but otherwise it is a decent baggage car.  It's basically a plastic version of the K-Line car like most of the Lionel fluted cars.  Of the Phase I painted cars, GGD's lone offering was the ATSF baggage car on the Amtrak version of the El Capitan.  There were only about 16 sets made between the two runs though so finding one is not too likely at this point.  Atlas's CZ based baggage car is fabulous but finding one in Amtrak is not too easy either.  I have a D&RGW one for my CZ and even finding a CBQ one like I want for that train is difficult enough. 

I suspect we can get a full baggage added to a future GGD project.  The HEP converted El Cap cars in Phase III will likely run along with a new run of Phase I and ATSF cars in the not-too-distant future.  Having the baggage car as a separate sale probably won't be a big issue.  The current tooling only has skirting at the ends like the ATSF prototype so it would be a great candidate for a HEP era Amtrak baggage car. 

Here is a GGD Santa Fe baggage car custom painted in Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad colors and a pic of a real CVSR and former Santa Fe car.   GGD has the car skirtless while the prototype CVSR still has skirts.  How about this GGD model in Amtrak colors?

Amtrak Phase I and Phase III, livery, looked so similar from photos on the internet, but having the 2 Golden Gate Depot cars, next to each other, helped me understand the differences between the Phase 1, on the Great Dome, and the contemporary, Phase III, on the Viewliner.

These are just my opinion,

Naveen Rajan

@AcelaNYP posted:

Naveen-

The stirrups simulate the platform/step used when the cars are switched in a terminal or yard. If you look at the end of each car you will see a large hole with a small hole next to it; the stirrup sprue fits into the large hole, and the small hole is for the M1 screw included with the stirrups.

Each car has four stirrups; two with the screw hole drilled on the left side of the stirrup, and two with the screw hole drilled on the right side.

-John

Got to see these Viewliner II, Baggage cars on the California Zephyr and the Southwest Chief, and noticed these stirrups at the location that you mentioned.

I see these trains, up-close, once a year, every June, and never noticed these stirrups, until last week.

These are just my opinion.

Naveen Rajan

Interesting to see how quickly the paint has faded on the Viewliner striping.  These cars have only been in service for about 4 years.  Which train is this, the Zephyr or the Chief?  Interesting to see two full baggage cars.  Thinking I should have ordered another one now!

I've never seen two baggage cars on a Superliner before, how many cars were on the train total? The trains I've ridden have only had 6 cars and 1 baggage.

Possibly looks like rub marks vs. fade.  I bet the second baggage was deadheading to or from Beach Grove shops.  Likely needed mechanical work and was being repositioned.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Interesting to see how quickly the paint has faded on the Viewliner striping.  These cars have only been in service for about 4 years.  Which train is this, the Zephyr or the Chief?  Interesting to see two full baggage cars.  Thinking I should have ordered another one now!

That’s because Amtrak no longer paints stripes but everything is now a decal.

That car was side swiped by something.. see the scuffs to the left of the doors on the red stripes.  Likely rubbed by some ground equipment when servicing.

@ThatGuy posted:

That’s because Amtrak no longer paints stripes but everything is now a decal.

Probably true.  I'll need to ask that question when I reach out Amtrak's brand manager this weekend on another project.