Gilbert Flyer GP7...

Mark -- I have a 370, 371 and 372 -- which are all pretty much the same once you get past the plastic shell. I think I'd start by removing the shell and then putting it on the track/test stand to see how well it runs.  The obvious thing to look at - assuming it does run - is the wear on the brushes on the motor.  IIRC, these are held in place by some spring clips (I haven't had one of my Flyer GP-7s apart in a while...).  Likely you may want to clean the commutator - contact cleaner on a Q-tip works.  If its been run a lot, then there are other issues to check out, like wear on the bushings, etc. -- none of which I've encountered, so I've no expertise to offer.  But there are others on this forum who do.

One truck is powered and the other is not.  So its worth pulling the plates off both  - for the unpowered one just to check that there aren't any bent axles or weird wear.  On the powered side, you'll want to check whether the old lube is caked and hardened -- even if not, its probably worth digging it out and relubing.

Then there is, of course, the e-unit - minimum maintenance would be to take contact cleaner to the drum, fingers, etc.  Since you know your way around the Flyer steamers, you'll already know this.

Here's a link to Chuck Harringtons terrific website that has scans of the Flyer repair manuals, parts diagrams, etc.  This is the clearest diagram (for the 371) but you can scroll to either side and find the 370 or 372...  http://myflyertrains.org/gallery/album209/371_2_001

Also on the powered truck, you will want to try to rock the axles back and forth and up and down to determine if the axle holes are worn.

This is a common problem with AF diesels that have seen a lot of run time in their life.  If there is excessive movement, you will want to have the holes drilled out and new bushings installed.  Running a AF diesel with worn bushings will damage the motor and gears over time.

Thanks guys. I've seen some of the issues you've mentioned on Youtube videos, so I'll start with those.

Too bad there's not a twin-motored version...do these single-motor units pull decently?

Mark in Oregon

FYI there were some 370's built with knuckle couplers at the factory.  I have one and seen many others, and they all look like they were manufactured that way not converted.

FYI there are different wiring diagrams for the GP7 series of engines.Make note of yours before complete dissassembly.If you take it apart and do a complete cleaning you need make sure you center the field inside the yolk.There two centering screws on each side of the field.Loosen them remove and clean your motor then center and tighten the screws.Diesel motors are bit more tricky than steamers.If you go on YOUTUBE Precision Flyer Repairs has an excellent piece about the parts of diesel  motorl....Best of luck

Thank you Russ, that's good to know. I am re-watching some of those videos with that in mind. It appears that the powered truck is not all that different from the HO scale types used on Mantua/Tyco diesels.

Typically, I don't expect any engine I get off eBay to run when I first get it, so the more I can learn in advance, the better. If I can get this to run as well as my #300 or #310, I'll be happy...is that reasonable?

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in so far; I will let you know how it's going... 

Mark in Oregon

370's do not have traction tires (PullMor) so their traction and pulling power is not great. Until you have it in your hands you will not know for certain what chassis is under the shell.

Also good to know and look for. Thanks Tom!

Mark in Oregon 

Ok, I picked this up just now, took the body off and found this:

Isn't this some sort of rectifier, and if so, this has been converted to run on DC?

Mark in Oregon

Since the shell was repainted it is not a surprise more changes would be under the hood. That is likely an old selenium disc bridge rectifier. If you want to run this engine on AC either an old Gilbert reverse unit needs to be found and installed or a modern Dallee electronic reverse unit is needed. The Dallee is $45. Rebuilt reverse units are $35, used are cheaper.

...2 hours later... 

Ok, I had this apart and cleaned everything; it was a mess. The shell is stamped "1951", and I'm guessing the grease that had turned to cement was original stuff. 

Anyway, when I apply (DC) power, the lights come on but nothing from the motor. I know that you can by-pass the reverse unit on a steamer by using a jumper between the #2 and #3 sockets, and putting juice to #'s 1 and 4. Is there some way I can do something similar here to by-pass that rectifier, just to test to see if the motor runs?

Thanks!

Mark in Oregon

I don't have any experience with these old rectifiers, so I'm not sure my advice is worth very much.  If you apply power and don't hear anything from the motor -- or see it try to move - you might try to poke around a bit with a volt meter to see if the rectifier is even working.  If you have a DC power supply - even a DC wall-wort that puts out a few volts - you could remove the rectifier and see if you get a response just using DC (you'd have to figure out what the wiring should look like - maybe some combination of seeing how its currently wired and looking at the DC wiring on Chuck Harrington's Flyer repair manual site.

Depending on how much more $ you want to sink into it - if the motor works, you might want to consider the Dallee unit mentioned earlier - it will be a lot more reliable than an old Flyer e-unit.  And you will be able to use your AC transformer.  Without some sort of reversing unit, you won't be able to reverse the loco when running with an AC transformer.

Can you make the motor move by trying to spin the rotor (hard to get at) just to make sure its not locked up for some reason?

richs09 posted:

I don't have any experience with these old rectifiers, so I'm not sure my advice is worth very much.  If you apply power and don't hear anything from the motor -- or see it try to move - you might try to poke around a bit with a volt meter to see if the rectifier is even working.  If you have a DC power supply - even a DC wall-wort that puts out a few volts - you could remove the rectifier and see if you get a response just using DC (you'd have to figure out what the wiring should look like - maybe some combination of seeing how its currently wired and looking at the DC wiring on Chuck Harrington's Flyer repair manual site.

Can you make the motor move by trying to spin the rotor (hard to get at) just to make sure its not locked up for some reason?

Thanks Rich

Point 1: I have several good DC supply units; I just don't know which combination of (2) of the (4) wires I need to hook up to the DC power in order to test the motor.

Point 2: One of the motor bearings was frozen up tight; as I say, I took it all part, cleaned everything and now it turns fairly freely: just not under power. 

Didn't I once say that tinkering with these things is my favorite part of the hobby...? 

Mark in Oregon

It is likely the old rectifier is bad. Hard to be sure from that picture but it looks like the original universal motor and wiring are present. The yellow, red, green and black rainbow cable wires are at the rectifier, unsolder them. This is a simple series universal motor. Ignore the two wires coming from the power pickup for the test. Two of the rainbow wires go to the field and two go to the armature. Connect one field wire to one armature wire. the remaining field wire and remaining armature wire can be connected to any AC or DC power source of 15V or less that will supply at least 1 Amp. If the motor is good it will spin.

Let us know what happens.

Since the shell is stamped 1951 this started life as a 370 with link coupler bars. Someone changed it to knuckle couplers. The Port Lines Hobbies website shows how this is done. It also has the wiring diagram. They are all listed under Repair Clinics at the top of the home page.

See, Tom knew right off the bat -- nice goin' Tom.  Like he said, let us know

Thanks guys! 

While you were responding, I was trying to come up with the correct combination to make this work: there are (5) contacts on the rectifier. I played around with them until I hit upon (from top to bottom) #'s 1 and 4. The motor runs (pretty well) in one direction only (as it turns out, it's "forward", with short nose first). 

I was puzzled as to why only one direction, until I remembered that if you use a jumper in a steam engine, that too will only go "forward", so I guess for now I'll live with it, running on DC, until I get a Dallee unit. I'm guessing those come with some sort of wiring schematic(?)

In the meantime, since I want to run this on AC, how would I re-wire it? I would disconnect the rectifier, then...?

Mark in Oregon

It will only run in one direction on AC without a reversing unit installed. To use AC temporarily connect the two wires in my post above to the pickup wires from the trucks. Hopefully it runs forward. If not swap the two field wires.

The Dallee units come with a connection diagram. The 2A version will work with the 370.

Thanks Tom

So let me get this straight: the two field wires are red and black; the armature wires are yellow and green. The green wire runs from the motor to the non-powered truck connection, not to the rectifier. The rectifier gets a red, yellow and (2) black wires. there is actually a jumper (red) between the black field and the top connector, hence the (5) contacts. If I connect the field and armature wires as you described, then where does the wire from the non-powered truck with pick-up go?

Forgive me for being dense, but I don't want to muck this up: which wires go where?   

Mark in Oregon

This is how I got it to run on DC...

I am impressed with how quiet this thing runs; it was in horrific condition this morning...

Mark in Oregon

Good work! To run it on AC without a reverse unit connect the red and yellow wires together. Leave the green where it is, then connect the black wire to the powered truck pickup. I cannot see if any part of the motor is grounded to the frame, I hope not. Nothing would be connected to the rectifier. It should now run from track power.

These engines run quiet. The only noise was from the reverse unit humming.

AmFlyer posted:

Good work!

Thank you.

To run it on AC without a reverse unit connect the red and yellow wires together. Leave the green where it is, then connect the black wire to the powered truck pickup.

I will give it a try.

 I cannot see if any part of the motor is grounded to the frame, I hope not.

I don't think so; if that was the case, it wouldn't run at all, correct?

Nothing would be connected to the rectifier. It should now run from track power.

  I certainly appreciate your walking me through this.

These engines run quiet. The only noise was from the reverse unit humming.

Mark in Oregon

Mark, I have been replying from memory while traveling and it has been a while since I had the shell off a 370. If  this does not work as described I will be home Tuesday and can get out one of my 370's. I can then meter it to see if anything is grounded to the chassis or the motor pivot point. I believe the motor pivot point is electrically part of the power truck electrical pickup.

Last post for today, I promise! 

Tom, I did exactly what you said to do, and sure enough, it runs great on AC as well as DC. (I checked it first on DC, since I was already set up for that.)

It runs very nicely on about 10VAC (using the 15B) and considering the condition it was in when I took delivery this morning, it's (once again) remarkable to me just how durable these old things are.

I have more comments and questions, but I think I should give you all a break and let you enjoy the rest of the evening... 

Mark in Oregon

PS: I don't see a "2A" listed on the Dallee website; would the #"400" do the same? Thanks!

Mark - glad that you've got it going.  I think what Tom had in mind was the 2 amp version of the Dallee 'e-units' (Flyer guys aren't supposed to call them e-units... but we all do).  But in just looking at the Dallee website, the #518, which is rated at 2 amps, sez DC motor only, while the #400 is rated at 4 amps and can drive either an AC or DC motor.  Since these are universal motors, I'm not sure I see a problem with using the #518 - OTOH, there's $5 difference in the cost.

You could measure the stall current running on DC and see if it stays below 2 amps, or pop for the #400, and/or wait for Tom's wisdom.

By the way, just to avoid confusion, when it sez the output from the #518 is DC, it still uses AC on the input side of the board.

- Rich

Mark, I feel good that my recall of the 370 connections was correct. The #400 works for all the Gilbert engines, single and dual motor diesels and steam engines. It looks like the 518 only works with 2 wire DC can motors so that is not an alternative. The Port Lines website says that the 518 is the same as the 400 except for the rating but looking at the Dallee site that is clearly not the case.

Hello again. 

A couple of questions:

1. This thing came marked for "Pomona Central". Now, over the years I've gotten fairly good at applying decals and transfers, but for the life of me this looks more like a stamped lettering job:

I can see no indication of decal film, etc. What do you think?

2: The first axle of this has plastic wheels that look like they may have been grooved for traction tires. I'm not a fan of those, so is it possible to replace these plastic wheels with metal ones? I know I would have to use an insulated wheel on one side...

Thanks!

Mark in Oregon

This has turned out to be a big project. The 370 diesels had no plastic wheels. So someone replaced the original metal wheels with plastic. Not sure where you will find the original metal wheels. Axles are available as are complete truck assemblies but I have not seen just the wheels.

It is hard to be sure from the picture but it looks like the silver shows through some of the lettering. This rules out dry transfers. Rubber stamps are available to match some of the original Gilbert lettering such as the steam engine cab numbers and the tender lettering. Assuming someone named their RR POMONA CENTRAL and had a few engines and cabooses to letter they may have had a stamp specially made. Many stationery stores offer custom stamps for ink pads.

Hi Tom

Re: lettering. You're no doubt correct. I was initially going to re-paint this and decal it for some road, but am impressed with how good it (the lettering) is, so I think I'll just leave it.

Re: wheels. "rfgco" has wheels (both "live" and insulated) currently listed on eBay. I suspect I would need one of each for the same axle...?  I don't have a lathe, so I wonder how difficult it would be to install these; any suggestions? I do have a small, desk-top "jeweler's" drill press...

Once again, I appreciate all your help with this. 

Mark in Oregon

To me that's a pretty nice looking AF GP and scheme. IF that's a homemade paint/lettering scheme, they did an EXCELLENT job getting the lettering nice and parallel with the bodywork. (You only get ONE shot at it with a print pad!) The herald on the cab side looks professional, too. Overall, the scheme is quite sanitary without garish colors/bizarre scheme that many "imagineered" liveries suffer from.

Andre

Mark, you will need a live and an insulated wheel for each axle. I have never replaced wheels on a Gilbert diesel so I have no first hand experience. The plastic wheels should be relatively easy to remove, there may have been glue used on install. I do not know the best way to reinstall the metal wheels, perhaps someone else here has done it and can offer experience.

I have tended to find that once you pull the non insulated wheel off the axle it rarely goes back on tight again. You have to resort to glueing back on with something like an epoxy.

These days I pull the wheel off the smaller journal which is normally the insulated wheel and leave the axle with the solid wheel on. You just then have to push the axle out through the gear and it will come out of the chassis as the other hole is for the larger journal.

Ukaflyer posted:

I have tended to find that once you pull the non insulated wheel off the axle it rarely goes back on tight again. You have to resort to glueing back on with something like an epoxy.

These days I pull the wheel off the smaller journal which is normally the insulated wheel and leave the axle with the solid wheel on. You just then have to push the axle out through the gear and it will come out of the chassis as the other hole is for the larger journal.

I'm not sure what you mean by "journals"; these driven wheel/axles have blunt axles ends, so there really is no "journal" to go into. And I don't see why I would have to pull the gear either. Please explain. 

I think an additional "good" reason for doing this is that it would give another electrical path; as it is, the powered truck is getting track power from the spring-loaded pick-up and (1) wheel. An added metal wheel would only help, I think...

Mark in Oregon

laming posted:

To me that's a pretty nice looking AF GP and scheme. IF that's a homemade paint/lettering scheme, they did an EXCELLENT job getting the lettering nice and parallel with the bodywork. (You only get ONE shot at it with a print pad!) The herald on the cab side looks professional, too. Overall, the scheme is quite sanitary without garish colors/bizarre scheme that many "imagineered" liveries suffer from.

Andre

Thank Andre.

I wish I could take credit for it.  I hadn't considered the "you only get ONE shot" aspect of this.   Here's a picture of the other side:

As you can see, the "E" didn't quite make it, and the lower part of "Central" is a bit light, but over all, I think it's more than adequate.

I am enjoying this project greatly... 

Mark in Oregon

Strummer posted:

Ukaflyer posted:

I have tended to find that once you pull the non insulated wheel off the axle it rarely goes back on tight again. You have to resort to glueing back on with something like an epoxy.

These days I pull the wheel off the smaller journal which is normally the insulated wheel and leave the axle with the solid wheel on. You just then have to push the axle out through the gear and it will come out of the chassis as the other hole is for the larger journal.

I'm not sure what you mean by "journals"; these driven wheel/axles have blunt axles ends, so there really is no "journal" to go into. And I don't see why I would have to pull the gear either. Please explain. 

I think an additional "good" reason for doing this is that it would give another electrical path; as it is, the powered truck is getting track power from the spring-loaded pick-up and (1) wheel. An added metal wheel would only help, I think...

Mark in Oregon

I got a bit ahead of myself when I mentioned about taking the axle out, this is if you need to strip and rebuild the chassis with new bushings.

The bit about putting another original solid wheel back on still holds, the chances are that it won’t hold tight and you will need to use something like an epoxy to keep it on.

Thanks. I appreciate the input. 

Another thing I had forgotten to mention about this example is that it has the brass bearings/bushings, which are in great shape, so I think I'm good there.

I will probably go ahead and purchase the (2) metal wheels (one insulated, one not) and give this a try...wish me luck! 

Mark in Oregon

Mark, that is great that the truck sideframes have the sliding shoe pickups. Were plastic wheels put on both axles of the power truck or just one? If it is just one I would leave it as is . If both then the metal wheels need to be reinstalled.

Since you can break/destroy the plastic wheels to get them off removal should not damage anything. Assuring the new wheels are correctly gauged is critical. Also make sure not to put pressure on the gear when driving the new wheels on the axle.

Here are some pictures of an original 370 made 12/50. This was prior to the use of rainbow wire for the internal wiring. The wheels are the metal and insulated.

AmFlyer posted:

Mark, that is great that the truck sideframes have the sliding shoe pickups. Were plastic wheels put on both axles of the power truck or just one? If it is just one I would leave it as is . If both then the metal wheels need to be reinstalled.

Since you can break/destroy the plastic wheels to get them off removal should not damage anything. Assuring the new wheels are correctly gauged is critical. Also make sure not to put pressure on the gear when driving the new wheels on the axle.

1. Both sides.

2. Good point. I will come up with something.

Thanks for the photos, by the way. Everything you guys post helps... 

Mark in Oregon