Good Day Scott Mann, How about producing the Gunderson Maxi Stack IV cars?

Scott,

I am also interested in these Gunderson cars & I would reserve multiple sets if you offered them.

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

How about a Mi-Jack to load or unload the Gunderson cars.  LOCOMOTION 

If you can sell them (3-car set) for $150 or less,  I'm in for 6-7 sets.

 

Thses would provide a fitting unit train (the bulk of which would be J.B. Hunts) for my Santa Fe GP60M's. 

This! Is a great idea!

 

Hopefully you sent the same request DIRECTLY to Scott Mann at Sunset/3rd Rail!

Tractors, container chassis, trailers and containers are several items that could be offered to present a 21st Century Intermodal theme with the Gunderson Maxi Stack IV cars.

Not going to happen. I can't see Scott doing these kinds of freight cars but if he did it would be great. 

 

I want a couple of sets also

 

Clem k

I agree with you. Seems more like a Lionel or MTH project.

 

NEVER say NEVER.

 

 

 

I am sure Lionel could/would do it.  Problem is... they would probably tag an MSRP of $239.99 per set.

 

MTH has a million other projects in the mix with his HO, S, O, RailKing, European... yada, yada. yada.  Besides he still hasn't figured out how to sell an ABA set w/o the PITA umbilical cords between the units.

I don't really care who makes them, Lionel, MTH, Atlas, 3rd Rail or even Weaver.

 

JUST SOMEBODY PLEASE!!!!

 

If you build it, I will buy.

Intermodal is what is happening in the real world right now...if someone made a whole intermodal line, well cars, containers, cranes, reach stackers, trucks and trailers they could make a killing.  This is what is missing from O scale.

Hence the never gonna happen.  $650-750/3 car set.  Containers extra.  The builder is very unfriendly towards cars less than ~$200 each.

 

Very annoying it is.

$650-750/3 car set.  Containers extra.  The builder is very unfriendly towards cars less than ~$200 each.

 

We are talking freight cars here, not Day Light passenger cars with fully detailed, populated and lighted interiors.  A 3-car set has a total of two couplers and only eight axles.  Where in the heck do you come up with this $650-750/3 car set?

 

These cars are considered very recent.  Lots of plans and detailed drawings available.  Would not require anywhere near the research, materials, labor and tooling used on the Super Chief or El Capitan, and those are selling for $250 each.

 

Just exactly what builders are you talking about?  Have these builders told you they are not interested?

 

IMHO ALL builders are interested in the same thing... making $$$. Here is an opportinity to do just that! 

 

I think I will wait and see what Scott Mann's reply is to this request.  He knows far more than any of us what is required, how many he would need to sell and at what price in order to return a decent and fair profit.  Unlike a named passenger train these cars would appeal to a MUCH broader audience.  Some people may want only a set or two, others may require a dozen or more.  

 

If nothing else, this topic is serving as a market survey.  So thanks to Swafford for starting it and ask your friends on the other forums to respond.  

Add me to those interested if price is in the range you mentioned....$50/unit. $150 for set of 3.

 

 

 

I would be in for multiple sets of these with containers!! I have a feeling we are being heard and they will be produced at some point. These cars are today's railroading over and over again!!

How in the world did Lionel make the Vision line ethanol tank cars with sound built in to two of them, for the street price they sold for?? (like $240??? 

What a great deal that was!

I should have bought more.

I can only hope they release more in the future.

I read on another thread that Scott or Sunset Models will be at next month’s Chicago March Meet (14^th & 15^th). I plan to ask the Sunset representative about making these cars. If others who are interested in these cars happen to attend the March meet, could you please promote this project?

Similarly interested hobbyists who plan to go the next York show, could you please discuss this project with Sunset if they are there?

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

One major factor is setting the price is the estimated product that will be sold.  If Sunset thinks that they can only sell 300 sets the project is probably DOA.  If they can sell 500-600 sets maybe it is a go.  If they can get firm orders for 800-1,000 sets I would say all doubt is removed and it will be done.  This volume would spread out the design, tooling and material cost and thus push up the profit.

 

But we already know this.  Now it is up to Sunset, Atlas, MTH, Lionel etc. to start the ball rolling.

Just my two cents, knowing a little about Scott Mann's business; remember that Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot is NOT a "high volume" provider of rolling stock. Thus, their "lower volume" lends itself to "hand made" precision brass steam locomotives and cabooses, for example. The ABS "plastic body" diesel models still have low volume brass under frames, and thus tend to be higher volume than the hand made steam models, but nowhere near the higher volumes that would be required to manufacture these modern freight cars being discussed.  Therefor, the projected sell prices would be well above the $500 per set threshold, in my opinion.  

There is a whole world of intermodal equipment out there that hasn't been touched in the O gauge market. With all the Dash 8's, Dash 9's, SD70's, ES44's out there, its long over due but I just don't see Scott as the one to do it. This would be a mass production market, with 3 packers, 5 packers, single wells that haven't been done.... this list is a mile long.

 

NO $35 containers & trailers... the doors don't need to open on every one of them.

 

Scott does the smaller quantities of more limited items.... maybe like the Santa Fe Fuel Foiler 10 packs

I think your reasoning is correct, although I also think you might be 20-25% high, but then that's still well about $150.  Than again, the specific trucks might cost $150 for a set of 4,

 

I suspect that given a decent set of masters that I could cast components to make resin kits for close to $150 (minus the trucks), but I might be low on that guesstimate, and am also leaving out any profit to boot which would gravely upset my Ferengi accountant to no end.

Post this request to MTH over on Facebook. I'm not on FB, but it will get MTH's attention.

PS - MTH probably thinks there's no market for intermodal/doublestacks because the sale of those early version (bad decision) 5 packs were weak.

I'm looking at Atlas O doing these cars- they've done them in HO, so alot of the R&D has already been done- plus, we know they can get it right as their HO models are superb. I agree too, that we do NOT need opening doors on the containers- I like the locking gear on the back, but the functioning portion is not necessary.

Like HW, I know some about Scott's business and HW has described the Sunset/GGD market perfectly.

 

In the past, Sunset has offered some freight cars and cabooses, all in brass with one exception. I don't believe most of the 3 rail market is willing to pay for these cars at brass prices, and the 3 rail market would seemingly be where the vast majority of sales of these cars would be.

 

Jeff Sohn stated an excellent point recommending folks talk to Atlas about doing these cars. They do both 2 and 3 rail rolling stock and may be a better choice than even Lionel and MTH since Atlas will satisfy the 2 rail market. Joe Hayter at Weaver Models is another possible option for making these.

 

Fact regarding Sunset/3rd Rail and freight cars:

Scott announced the PRR X31 box car in plastic several years ago and received less than 100 reservations. Lionel made the car and sold thousands.

I asked, I reasked. Scott bought a set of the Kato HO scale cars and went to the builder and said copy these.  His one and only single unique builder said ~$200 for each car or ~$600 per set of 3.  End of story.

 

The history of the builder is brass as Bob has stated.  Right now the builder is getting used to the plastic shells.  But the builders pricing is still in the brass world.  The primary body of any intermodal car needs to be die cast for weight and the builder is today uncomfortable with large die castings so that puts it out for the present too.

 

Scott would love to make something that would sell in the thousands; he's a business person.  But when people on this forum say it's about time Lionel did an SD40 when the Atlas one is available are the people who will keep the quantities down for 3rd rail.

 

MTH deserved to loose a bundle of money doing a 2nd class knockoffs of the Atlas cars.  The only people who would buy them are the cheaper is better crowd.  Any not before done intermodal car done with the scale quality of Lionel's husky stack would have sold and would continue to sell very well.

 

It took Atlas a while to figure out this modern full scale stuff would sell well with the Trinity hoppers.  Lionel finally figured out with the full length autoracks followed up with the 86' box cars and now the 21" passenger cars that people who say no one will buy those long cars is full of carp.

This car looks like it's going to be a 3D printed collective effort from us. There's already files blueprints available for containers http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:44074/#instructions

 

You might be on to something here. With good CAD drawings, the components could be 3D printed, then assembled around a brass plate/spine for strength (you lose the open framing, though)

If brass is for low-volume production, I speculate that 3D printing is for even lower quantities. I always thought that 3-D printing or rapid prototyping is for as the name suggests – prototypes not for making the same piece over & over. It is suitable for small, unique detail parts like a railroad-specific antenna or pilots for converting few 3-rail locomotives to 2-rail. Since the material is deposited in layers from a thin wire, along a single line or curve at a time, it could take a long time to make just 1 car. At that speed the car could end up costing as much as the brass models if not more. Even using commercial 3-D printing services like the ones I used for past work projects for scaled prototype automotive components,  on the same size range as these cars, it was over 4 – 6 hours quoted time / part.

Another concern is the length of these cars. The actual Gunderson 3-car prototype is almost 204’ long. The approximate length of each car in O-Scale would be over 16” long. Are there many hobby 3-D printers able to print models of this size?

These are just my opnion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Maybe a few answers for you on 3D printing.  Entire trolley body shells including interior partitions in O scale are now being printed and are available through Shapeways.  So the issues of size and time are probably not all that serious and also then not a hobby printer exercise.

 

Costs for these trolley shells are ~$200.

 

These shells are also probably considerably more complex, involve more material, and are time costing than the cars being discussed here.

 

 

Oh how I love these "How about producing..............." threads.  Reminds me about why I am still in HO. 

 

So, ya want some Gunderson Maxi-Stack IV cars and 53' containers?  The box car of the 21st century?   Lets see what we can learn about pricing from the HO world. 

 

http://www.katousa.com/HO/MAXI-IV/index.html

 

Kato makes an outstanding set of these cars in various paint schemes.  MSRP $105.00 for a three car set.   Now you would probably like some containers to put in there, right?  Those are $30.00 for a two container set. 

 

So, if you want to fill up the train, in HO, the MSRP is $195.00 for a three car set. 

 

There is no way that ANY manufacturer is going to be able to do $195.00 for a three car set in O, with containers, as the volume will NEVER be what it is in HO.  But lets assume that there are enough modern modelers in O scale that you could at least convince the likes of Atlas, Lionel, MTH, or Weaver, who have done a lot of injection molded freight cars over the years.  Lets further assume that it gets done in the orient, to a detail level equivalent to the Kato HO models. 

 

For a conversion factor for HO to O scale, lets look at the old time tested car that is done in HO to a high detail level by Intermountain, and in O by Atlas and MTH, the 1937 AAR box car. 

 

The latest MSRP from Intermountain on an HO car is $34.95.  The MSRP from Atlas O on the same type of car is $76.95 in two rail (lets compare two rail to two rail, shall we?).  So, doing the simple math, $76.95 / $34.95 = 2.2017, so for simplicity, lets say the O scale model will cost 2.2 times the HO model. 

 

Now, taking the $195.00 and multiplying that by 2.2, the cost would be $429.00 per three car set with six containers. 

 

Want to hold out hope that MTH can do it cheaper?  The PS-1 box car is roughly equivalent to the 1937 AAR, and the MSRP on a PS-1 is $59.95.  So probably the BEST price for MSRP you could hope for is $59.95 / $34.95 = 1.7153, or 1.7 times the HO model.  So, $195.00 x 1.7 = $331.50. 

 

Now to give just a little bit more hope, lets assume that best case, that you will get 15% off of list price, that gets you down to $281.78, plus tax or shipping. 

 

Want 10 of these bad boys to run behind your GP60s?  It will only run you about $2817.80, plus tax and / or shipping. 

 

And if you are a builder in this scale, like Atlas, they would invest in the tooling, and a year later Lionel or MTH will make the same identical car, and cut the pricing.  Huge incentive to invest, isn't there.  

 

I sure wouldn't be risking my money.

 

Scott is better off continuing doing what he is doing, it is a small enough market that he doesn't have to worry about the big dogs wanting in, as the market is too small for them. 

 

Want to do these in resin, brass, or 3D printing, the price only goes up from here.

 

 

Enjoying the above link.

 

GNNPNUT 

While I agree with you in part on your extrapolation regarding the large importers/manufacturers/etc., also knowing that Imperial Hobby Productions can sell trolley bodies through Shapeways

 

http://www.shapeways.com/shops...&section=O+Scale

 

for under $200 tends to tell me that a small entrepreneur can do the cars discussed here through 3D printing.  Now, whether modelers will buy them in another issue entirely having to finish them out, paint & decal, etc.

 

I also know that if I had the master in hand, I could probably pour resin to make a set or 3 every day (not happening....).  Again, whether modelers will buy them in another issue entirely having to finish them out, paint & decal, etc.   

 

Maybe if the demand is real enough, some enterprising person will actually do something more than expect some importer/manufacturer to answer their, "Please build me.......".

I would like to see Atlas do these, just as they did with their original die-cast Gundersons.

 

They will be pricey, keep in mind that the Atlas cars had a MSRP of $160 for the 2-car set and $210 for the intermediate 3-dar set.  Then add another $25-30 per container.

 

Fortunately for my budget, in my area, due to tunnel restrictions, containers are only single stacked in the cars.

 

Jim

I would hope these cars are not die cast but are made from plastic to keep the cost down, plus the weight.  Putting 10 sets of these cars in a train would prohibit the use of die cast bodies.  

 

I can can see it now.... JB Hunt, Schneider, EMP, Pacer StackTrain and Hub Group rolling through with a smile on...

I agree with Jeff make em plastic. I have one set of Atlas and I don't want another just too darn heavy.

 

Clem k

I don't find the Atlas die-cast Gundersons heavy.  They roll very easily.

 

My SD70MAC very easily pulls three 5-cars sets.  I think two engines together could easily pull five 5-car sets.

 

Jim

Certain companies would like you to think that die cast is more expensive than plastic but it is not.  The molding dies are exactly the same and the material is cheaper than plastic.  A baretable train or one with unweighted containers would stringline through "small" radius curves.  It's another reason the MTH version of the stack cars sucked.

 

Modern commercial 3d printers can do quite large prints but not in fine detail materials.  Scott has looked 3d printing and it ended up significantly more expensive, FOR A MANUFACTURER, than current production technologies.  There are zero volume cost savings.  So if one costs $100 then 100 cost $10K.