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Originally Posted by Bakdrft:

I am new to this site and hobby, but have been around trains for a while. I haven't noticed anyone posting pics with Graffiti on their cars. How come? Is it a no no. Cuz everyday trains have some cool graffiti.

That depends on the era that the person is modeling. For example, I model in the late 1940s thru the mid 1950s, and there sure wasn't any "graffiti" on railroad cars back then.

 

Also, if you try the SEARCH function, you just might find some examples of guys modeling the "modern era" with graffiti on their freight cars.

That depends on the era that the person is modeling. For example, I model in the late 1940s thru the mid 1950s, and there sure wasn't any "graffiti" on railroad cars back then.

 

A few years ago, another forum I belong to was planning on doing a war emergency 2 bay hopper, and there were some suggestions for graffiti. In our research, we found that graffiti was found on rolling stock in the 40's. Nothing like the stuff we see today though. 

My son has a cylindrical hopper that a graffiti artist "tagged" for him. I'll take a picture and post it.

Don

Here's a pic of the car. The fellow who did the art work is a former graffiti artist who moved to our area from California. He and three of his fellow taggers were caught and had to pay a substantial fine. about a year later, he was hired by the city of Wilkes-Barre to paint murals on downtown buildings. Rather ironic!

By the way, the tag reads WIKKA

Don

Mark's graffiti car 001

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I am torn on this particular type of detail. I have 8 brand new Lionel Auto Racks. Almost everyday, I watch live cams and also You Tube of these Auto Racks to capture the most minute details. Many are chalk full of graffiti. The problem is, I cannot see placing graffiti on those new cars of mine, but perhaps I could purchase a stand alone car and do her up myself with some graffiti for that added touch of realism.

 

Modern railroads profane of these graffiti artist because they destroy railroad property and cause numerous headaches for those that maintain them. Personally, I hate anyone that purposely goes out of their way to not only violate railroad property, but on top of it, spends hours defacing these really cool looking cars and yes.....locomotives. They should all be arrested and made to pay.

 

That is my two cents.

 

Pete

I can't control what goes on around me in the real world.....but in the O scale world where I have complete control there is no such thing as criminally defaced property. The only thing I have is 'KILROY' on a few 40's era cars....and these are like original chalk. 

 

I though this post was about something else altogether!!!!!!!

 

AGCOUPE1

AG58

AG32

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  • AG32

Graffiti, its as old as cave drawings by a visiting caveman.

Carving a lovers name in an orchard tree. Maybe a name left on a big boat. A hitching post in town. Or a schoolroom desk. The graffiti of our forefathers is can be important historically sometimes so despite the legalities, its 'horror" falls short of my ability to take it seriously.   

Art? Some. Most isn't as great as its made out to be. Few true original styles, mostly copies of "standards" now. It inspired much of my early graphic art work, but never tempted me to paint a building, or railcar though.(I did a building. I was asked to.)

  A group a NY students told us they did it mostly to brighten up awful, neglected looking cars in storage within sight of their gatherings or homes. An old school graffiti artist was often looking to make his world a little brighter. But sometimes for "protest" too. So I am always left with a dilemma when it comes to graffiti; abatement of visually maintaining equipment having an impact on the lives of some-vs- "defacing" that private property. Which is the greater "sin"?   

On one hand, I feel like this about it...Hey it needed painting, he picked up the paint, and did it free. If you don't like it, don't let it become urban decay to begin with, then maybe he'll collect trains instead of painting them. I couldn't keep a vehicle with paint like that without indoor storage, or 2 miles movement every 48hrs. "Its industrial" only increases its expected visual responsibility in my eyes.

 And on the other hand, any covering up of important text, equipment, or if its a well maintained car, now I'm ready to prosecute. Harshly.

 I did work on a railcar paint booth, and peeked at some records someone stored(hid?) 50ft up in the aux. ventilation exhaust(?why?) (I was stuck for hours, man-lift died after partner lowered.) The rate of its use wasn't impressive. I saw 4 cars repainted  over two weeks.      

 

Originally Posted by rail:

 about a year later, he was hired by the city of Wilkes-Barre to paint murals on downtown buildings. Rather ironic!

 

I've often thought, "Why don't these guys pursue an honest line of work and make some money with their talent??"  Kind of like computer hackers, who could have good IT jobs.  (Maybe they do).

 

Mark's graffiti car 001

 

Like Matt, I live in the Los Angeles basin. Around the city I have seen some graffiti that is truly artistic but that's rare. Mostly it's just vandalism and gang related. Train liveries are their very own art weathered or not and a big part of what attracts me to the hobby. To me, graffiti ruins that, plain and simple.

Graffiti was performed during the Roman Empire as well.

 

Graffiti, in the specific context of Graffiti art, is indeed art if it's done on property that involves the owner's consent.  Otherwise it's defacing property, aka vandalism, plain and simple.

 

I sometimes wonder if those that call tagging & other illegal forms of grafitti art may think differently if their own property, their house or car perhaps, ended up being the canvass that taggers chose to use on a given night?

I do enjoy engines and rolling stock filthy ... dirty, greasy, rusty, even damaged. I would love to have black smoke coming out of my old diesels at throttle.

 

But, I just can't appreciate graffiti. Maybe ... in real life ... I feel that someone is imposing their will on me, on something they don't own.

 

But, to each is own!

As some have previously stated, a lot of graffiti is fabulous art, but grossly  misplaced. There was a documentary several years ago filmed mainly in New York City, focusing on one particular "artist" whose tag was SEEN. His reasons for displaying his artwork was twofold: fist, he wanted his work to be seen, hence the name, and second, it is the thrill of doing it without getting caught. This is true for many, including the young lad who did the tag on my son's hopper. 

I do not like graffiti on trains or private/public property for the simple reason that it is a violation of said property, and an infringement on the rights of others to have their property respected. It would be a totally different situation if permission was granted. 

By the way, I added an extra K to the WIKA tag I posted earlier.

Don

In 2013, I attended Rail fest in North Platte, NE. I was lucky enough to take the bus tour of Bailey Yard. Our tour guide, a UP employee, said that the railroads don't care about the graffiti as long as it doesn't contain profanity, or doesn't put the lives of the artist or employees in danger.

 

He also stated that a couple of the supervisors took pictures of the more interesting pieces going over the humps and had compiled two books full of the images.

 

Given the locations where these "blank canvases" are parked, and the length of time they sit, it is no wonder so many cars have graffiti.

 

I happen to model the modern era, and like the color and pop graffiti gives today's monochromatic rail cars. I have a dozen sheets of graffiti decals, and have even created some of my own from photos of real cars that I took.

No, not on the wrong forum, at least not completely. I enjoy graffiti; visually stimulating.

I did one modern car with it.

 

But, as I model the late steam era, when graffiti was less prevalent (but not unknown),

the subject is moot. Accessible spray paint came along in the late 50's, and there you go.

 

So, if I were a Modern modeler it would be common on my equipment.

 

Is it "right" or "wrong"? It's a freight car, not your house. It's owned by a corporation,

which, regardless of legal opinions, is not a person. Not much moral baggage.

 

=====

 

John Korling - to expand upon your Roman grafitti comment: yes, and one reason was that the Roman civilization was the first one in the Western world (the whole world, maybe) to

have a high level of literacy. Not at today's level, but many an ordinary Roman citizen

could read and write.

 

Really makes it fitting that "graffiti" is an Italian ("Roman") word.

Last edited by D500
In my day job, I'm in charge of rail fleet for a chemical company.  On average, it costs us approximately $2000 to have a moderate amount of graffiti removed from one of our cars.  In some extreme cases I have seen, the entire car must be repainted and receive all new stenciling and emergency response decals.  This can run closer to $7-8000/per car. 

Each year we have to have graffiti removed from approximately 100 cars either because it covers reporting marks/numbers or emergency response info or if a customer has complained about offensive words or drawings. 

You guys can do the math but, I am sick of hearing this crap that it's art or personal expression.  It's vandalism and it costs my employer money to remove it.   Compounding the cost is the productivity loss while the car is out of service in the shop.

My personal opinion with regard to graffiti vandals is I'd love an opportunity to shove a paint can "where the sun don't shine".  You want to paint, do it on a canvas.

Curt
Originally Posted by D500:

John Korling - to expand upon your Roman grafitti comment: yes, and one reason was that the Roman civilization was the first one in the Western world (the whole world, maybe) to have a high level of literacy. Not at today's level, but many an ordinary Roman citizen could read and write.

 

Really makes it fitting that "graffiti" is an Italian ("Roman") word.

 

Read & write, but I guess even back then sometimes not so well:

 

Originally Posted by juniata guy:
In my day job, I'm in charge of rail fleet for a chemical company.  On average, it costs us approximately $2000 to have a moderate amount of graffiti removed from one of our cars.  In some extreme cases I have seen, the entire car must be repainted and receive all new stenciling and emergency response decals.  This can run closer to $7-8000/per car. 

Each year we have to have graffiti removed from approximately 100 cars either because it covers reporting marks/numbers or emergency response info or if a customer has complained about offensive words or drawings. 

You guys can do the math but, I am sick of hearing this crap that it's art or personal expression.  It's vandalism and it costs my employer money to remove it.   Compounding the cost is the productivity loss while the car is out of service in the shop.

There is the voice of realistic facts, not opinion.

 

As a railroader, I have to work daily with graffiti covered cars.  I echo Juniata guy's sentiments completely.  Every railroad and rail car owner has to deal with the effects and expenses of the vandalism of so-called "graffiti".

 

Need to weigh a car? Too bad, the tare weights/etc are covered in spray paint. 

 

Graffiti: Hate it.

 

Oh, and spare me the art/expression BS... no way.

…and, of course, writing things on freight cars is nothing new(although back then the writing was a lot smaller than the tagging of today).  For example –we have this item

 

Who is this J.B. King?

 

  "…railroad brass hats have been fighting it for forty or fifty years. You can still see “J.B. King Esq.” on box cars all the way from the B&O to the Santa Fe. The old brakeman explained it “The name,” he said, “was old when I first started railroading in 1896. I guess I’ve wrote it myself a thousand times. Used to be a poem about it:

 

Who in the h!!l is J.B. King?

You see his name on everything

On boxcars high and flatcars low

You see his name wherever you go.

 

Who in the h!!l is J.B. King,

Who writes his name on everything?

Whether he does it for money or for fun

He sure is a scribbling son of a gun.

 

From A Treasury of Railroad Folklore

 

The deal was to write the name, complete with the periods in a single stroke without lifting the pen.  The book gives an illustration of the name written in this manner. So for those of you modeling anything from the turn of the 20th Century to at least 1945 (the year of the publication of the book) you could add this item in very tiny script to one of your cars.

 

Originally Posted by Robert S. Butler:

…and, of course, writing things on freight cars is nothing new(although back then the writing was a lot smaller than the tagging of today).  For example –we have this item

 

Who is this J.B. King?

 

  "…railroad brass hats have been fighting it for forty or fifty years. You can still see “J.B. King Esq.” on box cars all the way from the B&O to the Santa Fe. The old brakeman explained it “The name,” he said, “was old when I first started railroading in 1896. I guess I’ve wrote it myself a thousand times. Used to be a poem about it:

 

Who in the h!!l is J.B. King?

You see his name on everything

On boxcars high and flatcars low

You see his name wherever you go.

 

Who in the h!!l is J.B. King,

Who writes his name on everything?

Whether he does it for money or for fun

He sure is a scribbling son of a gun.

 

From A Treasury of Railroad Folklore

 

The deal was to write the name, complete with the periods in a single stroke without lifting the pen.  The book gives an illustration of the name written in this manner. So for those of you modeling anything from the turn of the 20th Century to at least 1945 (the year of the publication of the book) you could add this item in very tiny script to one of your cars.

 

Herbie, Kilroy, King and  other vintage 'markings' were done 99.9% of the time with chalk.....which was gone after a few rains.  

Originally Posted by Bakdrft:

I am new to this site and hobby, but have been around trains for a while. I haven't noticed anyone posting pics with Graffiti on their cars. How come? Is it a no no. Cuz everyday trains have some cool graffiti.

 I knew this was coming by the way Bakdrft Only a no-no if you don't like the mess it can stir as a direct topic. "Look at this" is much more tolerated, but you will get quips... As it should be. HO seems a bit more tolerant and interested in this, but the fans here, and rail workers don't like it much as you can see.

 

 I do feel for some management teams having been a supervisor for maintenance teams in other industries. I've had a bonus lost to the cost of vandals too.

  What did I learn. Do you jobs well, keep things nice, and you are less of a target.

   

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