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Greenbrier Express' put on hold(UPDATE)

superwarp1superwarp1OGR Forum Member
quote:
'Greenbrier Express' put on hold; Rowland blames overregulation
Published: November 11, 2011
POTTSTOWN, Pa. — Rail entrepreneur Ross Rowland has stopped work restoring passenger cars that he’d planned on using to serve a luxury West Virginia hotel, the Pottstown Mercury has reported. Rowland began hiring workers in February to refurbish 15 cars for the service, but has now laid off 21 of the 38 he’d hired.

Rowland said Jim Justice, owner of the 200-year-old Greenbrier Hotel, ordered the train project put on hold pending analysis of passenger railcar crashworthiness regulations. TRAINS couldn’t immediately reach Rowland for more details on what regulations forced the shutdown, or what the specific problem was.

Rowland is best known as the mastermind of the American Freedom Train, a steam-powered tour train that crossed the country at its Bicentennial. The Greenbrier Express was to ferry passengers from Washington, D.C., to the hotel and resort at White Sulphur Springs, W.Va., in luxury over the route of Amtrak’s Cardinal. He’d initially planned to use steam power for the train, but later decided to use diesels.

He said he’s keeping 17 employees on for “engineering work” to adjust the cars to meet FRA regulations. That way, if Justice decides to pursue the express in the future, the cars will be ready.

Workers have been fixing up the luxury train at the former Bethlehem Steel site in Pottstown.

Rowland said it wasn’t the economy, but overregulation that forced Justice to put the project on hold.
Last edited {1}
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JT Jim TigheOGR Forum Member
I am going to post the following on this thread, as it seems the more likely one to get looked at. The crucial factor involved in the Greenbrier case seems to be the FRA's decision to classify this venture and its equipment as a regularly scheduled service, the same as with Amtrak. Evidently, other operations of this ilk, such as the American Orient Express, were considered to be outside the realm of regularly scheduled operations, and were not held to the more stringent rules concerning passenger car crash-survivability that apply to Amtrak equipment. As best I can fathom it, Mr. Rowland went into this venture under the assumption that the Greenbrier would be treated the same as the AOE had been. With the FRA now saying that the Greenbrier cars have to meet Amtrak standards, the cost projections for the car rehabs have gone beyond the point at which money can be made on this service. If anyone here has a better or more accurate take on all this, please chime in.
T Two23OGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Lyndall:

No promises, but I'll see what I can come up with. Bear in mind that the engine is difficult to photograph the way it is positioned; there is no daytime sunlight on the engineer's side at all and the fireman's side is partially blocked by the staircase to the cab. Additionally, the engine is so dark now that a good daylight exposure is only possible on a cloudy day or with a good night shot and lots of supplemental lighting.




It would not take much flash to light that. Here's what I'd do. I use about three Nikon SB-28 flash (or any 4AA type flash) set on 8 ft. lightstands, with radio triggers. I'd be going for that engineer's side of train, at night. Any wide lens would work; doesn't need to be an expensive fast one. Simply open the shutter and pop the flash two or three times. This is not at all hard to light. You could even do it with a high powered spot light at night, camera on "bulb" mode, and smoothly and evenly "painting" the engine with light. Not hard. You could also shoot it in sections, and stitch them together in software. Lots of ways to do this small project.


Kent in SD
JT Jim TigheOGR Forum Member
OK, Bob, let me state it this way: Costs have risen to the point at which even the Greenbrier people are not willing to pay them. Whether intended as a dollar-maker or not, the operation becomes prohibitively costly to run with the current FRA stance. I had not realized that the train was intended solely as a publicity gesture, and was not intended to make money on its own.

As for the paint job tweaking, I do not like the gold smokebox front. (At least it looks gold on the screen here. ) This project reminds me of my attempts to modify an '89 Olds wagon into something "Packard-esque." Keep going back to the drawing board.................
Tim O'MalleyTim O'MalleyOGR Forum Member
Here's what I would do for any photo that would be considered an "official" portrait... Disconnect the garden hose, move the yellow mop bucket or whatever it is and any other distracting items out of the way. It is easier to move these portable items than to move a steam locomotive to a better location.
I haven't been to Clifton Forge to see if a better location is available, but even a bad location can be improved with a little cleaning up. Strobe lights and digital photography bring everything out, so make sure you want people to see your product, not your cleaning products.
jd-trainjd-trainOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
I may be in the minority on this, but my opinion is that if these coaches are going into regular service, they SHOULD meet the minimum safety standards. Passenger safety should trump the neatness factor in getting this train into commercial service.

quote:
As best I can fathom it, Mr. Rowland went into this venture under the assumption that the Greenbrier would be treated the same as the AOE had been.


- It would seem kinda naive to me that someone would begin a project of this magnitude based on an assumption that these cars would not have to meet the FRA requirements. If this is the case, to come back and blame the FRA on overregulation is a joke.

Hopefully the cars can be made safe to run, as this would be a beautiful train to see.

Jim
JT Jim TigheOGR Forum Member
Jim, I am not saying that Ross went into this unprepared. All I am saying is that it appears that the possible FRA glitch wasn't realized, for whatever reason, whomever's fault. As Rich said, there is probably a lot going on here that none of knows about, so speculation based on what little we do - or seem - to know is all we can manage for now. RR sometimes posts on this forum, so maybe at some point he will be able to enlighten us all. Sure ain't nothin' simple anymore, is there?
Bob LyndallBob LyndallOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Tim O'Malley:
Here's what I would do for any photo that would be considered an "official" portrait...


Agreed, and if I were to do an "official portrait" it would be done with cameras & lighting equipment far superior to anything being used last evening. I also would have either re-greened
the grass which has become seasonally browned, and or spread artificial snow on the ground.

quote:
Originally posted by Jim Tighe:... With the FRA now saying that the Greenbrier cars have to meet Amtrak standards, the cost projections for the car rehabs have gone beyond the point at which money can be made on this service. If anyone here has a better or more accurate take on all this, please chime in.


The original concept as explained to me was not with the expectations of making this a money maker. Rather, it was to be the advertising & promotional arm for the Greenbrier Family of Products.


quote:
Originally posted by Ed Mullan:
Bob. do you have a little longer shot of 614 so we can get the full effect
of the paint changes?

Ed M


Ed -

With a good internet connection, you can get an idea of how she looked up to the graphite being applied to the smokebox. This video will give you a representative idea as to how the paint scheme changes have progressed to date, November 14th. Additional tweaks & modifications are still entirely possible.



NOTE: This Video Best Viewed Full-Screen Directly On YouTube:

Direct YouTube Link
Last edited by Bob Lyndall
superwarp1superwarp1OGR Forum Member
quote:
Rowland: I’ll recall laid-off workers
By Wayne Laepple
Published: November 22, 2011
POTTSTOWN, Pa. – Rail entrepreneur Ross Rowland said Wednesday he expects to recall the 21 workers laid off the week before from the Greenbrier Express renovation project just as soon as engineering work is approved by Amtrak officials.

In a telephone interview, Rowland called the layoffs “a temporary setback.” Contrary to his earlier statements, Rowland did not mention excessive regulation as a reason for the layoffs. In fact, federal crashworthiness regulations haven’t changed since the project started.

“Because we are converting sleepers into parlor cars, we have to change the window alignment on one side of the cars, which mean structural changes to the cars,” he explained. “We got ahead of ourselves because the engineering has taken longer than we expected.”

Rowland said engineering firm STV Inc. has been preparing the necessary calculations and drawings, which must be certified and submitted to Amtrak for approval in order to meet FRA regulations for crashworthiness. “These drawings must be stamped by professional engineers to certify that the changes are not weakening the car’s integrity,” Rowland said.

About 20 people are still at work in the former Bethlehem Steel facility in Pottstown, Rowland said, and he expects the rest to be called back within a month.
A AMCDaveOGR Forum Member
quote:
Bob Lyndall


I just watched the video you posted. Great watch. I was thrilled to see the Mill at Babcock State Park featured. The Stoney Creek Mill was at one time owned by a relative of mine. In the upper part of the Mill near the rafters are the initials of my Dad's aunt who played in the mill when it was near Campbelltown. Last time we went we found them and showed the state park employee....they had never seen them! I think Dad put the story in his last book too.

My question is there a connection between 614 and the mill? Other than both WV icons??? Thanks!
Bob LyndallBob LyndallOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by AMCDave: My question is there a connection between 614 and the mill? Other than both WV icons??? Thanks!


No!

The video was constructed around the theme of Clifton Forge, C&O 614, The Greenbrier Presidential Express and the State of West Virginia, home of the Greenbrier, the Mill and other well known WV landmarks.

A number of West Virginia state icons were considered, but the Glade Creek Grist Mill is about as well known as any and I went with it.

Bob Lyndall
firefighter25dfdfirefighter25dfdOGR Forum Member
Bob,

The plan is to use the 614 as a static display at the Greenbrier Resort to "promote and showcase" the passenger train. The train itself will be pulled by diesels because CSX wants nothing to do with steam.

The 614 needs a full 1472 service rebuild and a lot of firebox work. I've been told that it looked like a tropical storm in the firebox when she was under steam! I would love to see her in operation but I'm not going to hold my breathe!
lehighlinelehighlineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
quote:
“Because we are converting sleepers into parlor cars, we have to change the window alignment on one side of the cars, which mean structural changes to the cars,”

This is the whole meat and potatos of the story. The cars are not just being refurbished. They are being structuraly altered. As such, with this amount of modification, small wonder the FRA saw fit to require engineering review. With this amount of stuctural change, I can see them requiring the cars to pass certain crash worthiness criteria.

Chris
LVHR
Allan MillerAllan MillerOGR Editor-in-Chief SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
quote:
I wish they would make up there minds on an paint job, the 614 has had more paint jobs then the 4449 has had in many years, but the paint on the 614 seems too change weekly, don't understand it myself? Roll Eyes

I imagine they're just fine-tuning things to get what they feel is the right look. I'm just glad they "fixed" those numbers on the cab by getting rid of that distracting box that they had around the numbers earlier on.
RickORickOOGR Forum Member
With all due respect passenger fans,I'd much rather see the money put into modifing the cars put towards getting the 614 operational,such a fancy paintjob,and there it sits,"all show & no go" Frown. IMO if you've ridden in one passenger car, you've ridden in them all. I'd just assume see 614 pull a string of modern passenger cars.I know its not up to me,I'm just sayin.
enjineerbillenjineerbillOGR Forum Member
quote:
Originally posted by Allan Miller:
quote:
I wish they'd make one in O scale I'd jump on it in a minute.

Ditto!


Hello Gentleman. I am new here and my name is Johnny. A friend told me that there was an interest in this train here. I was commissioned to do the 15 car O scale train, it is in PA.,awaiting the 'fallout' to, well fallout. It was supposed to run in the resort lobby.....









Johnny
enjineerbillenjineerbillOGR Forum Member
Thanks Zett and Chris,

Here's the 'backstory' on the train;

When Ross first wanted the train, it was to be painted in the green/cream kind of orient express scheme the cars were in. So I began, the colors changed to add another then another, requiring me to strip the cars and once again mask and repaint. When they first gave me the final colors, I was disappointed, not believing the scheme would look right, but boy, was I WRONG. The train looks beautiful in full dress and those colors. Even the wife was skeptical at first, but very much likes the finished cars.

When finished, the train was shipped to Ross, via a friend of mine in Pennsylvania and delivered to him. The train was to be a gift for James Justice and was supposed to be set up in the resort lobby after presentation this month. When Ross got the train, he showed it to the men working on the prototype, who, had not finished one of the cars at the time, and they loved it. Getting to see what they were doing was said to be very exciting to them.

Fast forward 2 days when my phone rings and my friend says "guess where the GB express train is??......In the trunk of my car...." He went on to tell me that the project was on hold, pending the outcome of the problems with the prototype.
Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens next. For right now, the train is boxed and sits in the basement of my friend in PA.

Johnny

P.S. Thank you for the welcome to the 'crazy house', I should fit right in...lol
CR C&O RailroaderOGR Forum Member
The paint job on the Model's look Ok,but when you apply that too real equipment that will be ruuning on the Mainline, it will be real hard keeing that paint scheme clean of Dirt,Mud, and all kinds of Grimes, that will show up on all the cars while in motion, don't get me wrong its an nice paint scheme, but from an Cleaning aspect of it, it's an pain in the *** too KEEP CLEAN!!!!!!

I know from experiance on working on Excursion Equipment over the years.

P.S. Hey Bob L. Nice job on the Video.
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