Hand Firing a larger steam engine

Hayden L posted:

  Can anyone described what goes into firing or even hand firing a medium sized steam engine (like a CP G5) ?

Depending on how hard the locomotive is working, and the Engineer REALY knows what he's doing, i.e. proper valve cut-off vs. throttle position, you either shovel one he$$ of a lot of coal, or you take it easy. To be specific, proper firing of a hand fire locomotive, generally entails placing the coal in a "horseshoe pattern" around the grates. By that I mean, placing coal all along the left side, then across the back (under the fire door", then all along the right side, finishing with some coal in the center, especially the "bright spots". It is VERY important to keep a large "heal" of coal all along the back of the grates, as the natural vibration & draft, tend to move the fire-bed forward on the grates.

  Now with understanding that, is there an engine that would be 'to big' to hand fire ? I see that that would be a lot of work. I've read about the Allegany Central railroad (used to run on the Western Maryland Scenic ?) and apparently the one firemen preferred to hand fire the 1238 and 1286, that's what brought up such a question. Thanks for the Fast reply.

The Federal Government (the ICC, back then) passed a law (back in the 1920s I think) that all steam locomotives with more than a certain square foot of grate area HAD to be equipped with a stoker. You will have to look up the specifics of that law, in order to find the square footage of the grate area requiring a stoker. For what it's worth, trying to hand fire a locomotive equipped with a stoker is NOT easy.

  I see, does the stoker get in the way to hand fire ? (The firebox is made to be pretty much fired by the stoker ?)

Hayden L posted:

... is there an engine that would be 'to big' to hand fire ?

Yes. Just a few off the top of my head...

N&W 1218 A

C&O 1604 Alleghaney

UP 4014 Big Boy

I'd put a case of beer on the line that you'd never make out of the yard.

Detroit & Lima Northern Railway

A place where I like to hang out for classic rail-fanning - Hand firing.

Gary

Hot Water posted:

The Federal Government (the ICC, back then) passed a law (back in the 1920s I think) that all steam locomotives with more than a certain square foot of grate area HAD to be equipped with a stoker. You will have to look up the specifics of that law, in order to find the square footage of the grate area requiring a stoker. For what it's worth, trying to hand fire a locomotive equipped with a stoker is NOT easy.

It wasn't the size of the grate which determined whether am engine had to have a mechanical stoker.  It was the weight on the drivers.  While I guess that that person(s) responsible for the decision felt that a heavier engine would have a greater need for a mechanical stoker, it didn't take into account the reality that the area of the grate would be a better determining factor.

The one of the best examples of the flawed reasoning used by the ICC was the Pennsy class E6s 4-4-2, G5s 4-6-0, and the H8s/9s/10s 2-8-0's.  All these engines used almost the exact same size boilers and fire boxes, with approximately 55 square feet of grate.  Because the 2-8-0's carried more weight on their drivers they had to receive mechanical stokers, while the 4-4-2 and 4-6-0 engines didn't.

We've had to hand fire the 765 a couple of times when the stoker failed. All we did was throw the coal on the "pot" and let the stoker blast jets blow it out into the fire bed as usual. The "pot" is just inside the door and it's easy to place coal on it. It is where the stoker normally delivers the coal and where the blast jets blow it put into the fire.

With 90 square feet of fire (think a 9 x 10 foot room with a fire on the floor) there is no way anyone could consistently get coal in the front corners with a scoop.

Kelly Anderson posted:

 A hand fired K4 could produce about 2,000 horse power, while a stoker fired one could produce 3,000 hp.   

I'm curious why this is--how does the way coal gets into the firebox change the HP? Is it that the stoker can just deliver way more coal?

smd4 posted:

Kelly Anderson posted:

 A hand fired K4 could produce about 2,000 horse power, while a stoker fired one could produce 3,000 hp.   

I'm curious why this is--how does the way coal gets into the firebox change the HP? Is it that the stoker can just deliver way more coal?

Yes, a properly operated stoker system can not only deliver more coal at a faster rate to ANY part of the firebox grate area, but the coal crusher works to provide more evenly sized coal pieces for potentially complete burning before it ever hits the firebed.

Even though it has a stoker, IRM's Frisco Decapod is fired manually.

It's pretty easy to hand-bomb as long as the engineer isn't too enthusiastic.   The only time I had to work hard firing was when we had some C&NW execs visiting and one of them thought he was running the 400 to Minneapolis.

Rusty

OGR Webmaster posted:

We've had to hand fire the 765 a couple of times when the stoker failed. All we did was throw the coal on the "pot" and let the stoker blast jets blow it out into the fire bed as usual. The "pot" is just inside the door and it's easy to place coal on it. It is where the stoker normally delivers the coal and where the blast jets blow it put into the fire.

With 90 square feet of fire (think a 9 x 10 foot room with a fire on the floor) there is no way anyone could consistently get coal in the front corners with a scoop.

Rich, when a stoker fails, what usually goes wrong?

Dieselbob posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

We've had to hand fire the 765 a couple of times when the stoker failed. All we did was throw the coal on the "pot" and let the stoker blast jets blow it out into the fire bed as usual. The "pot" is just inside the door and it's easy to place coal on it. It is where the stoker normally delivers the coal and where the blast jets blow it put into the fire.

With 90 square feet of fire (think a 9 x 10 foot room with a fire on the floor) there is no way anyone could consistently get coal in the front corners with a scoop.

Rich, when a stoker fails, what usually goes wrong?

In my experience, both times (once with 765 and once with PRR 1361), the auger encountered something, and thus sheared the "safety/shear bolt" in the universal joint of the stoker drive shaft. I remember on of the "old heads" told me that the two worst pieces of foreign material that could ever get into the auger trough, was a tie plate, or a good sized piece of tie/wood. Both will SERIOUSLY jam the stoke screw, and many times shear the safety/shear bolt.

Dieselbob posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

We've had to hand fire the 765 a couple of times when the stoker failed. All we did was throw the coal on the "pot" and let the stoker blast jets blow it out into the fire bed as usual. The "pot" is just inside the door and it's easy to place coal on it. It is where the stoker normally delivers the coal and where the blast jets blow it put into the fire.

With 90 square feet of fire (think a 9 x 10 foot room with a fire on the floor) there is no way anyone could consistently get coal in the front corners with a scoop.

Rich, when a stoker fails, what usually goes wrong?

In the 765's case it was tie plates in the coal that caused the problems both times. In one case the stroker engine stripped the gears in the tender and in the other incident it sheared the bolt.

I helped night hostle the 765 a LONG time ago. Even standing still in the yard and no movement it was a chore in precision hand/eye coordination to get coal all the way to the front of the firebox. The slope of the grates coupled with the firebrick arch, makes it a challenge to get coal all the way up there.

The NYO&W Class X 2-10-2 "Bullmoose" engines were originally outfitted with Streets Stokers, which were prone to jamming.  

It reportedly required 2 men to fire them when the stokers were jammed.

Thanks guys, I'm loving all of this and learning a lot.

Alfred Bruce's book, The Steam Locomotive in America, is highly recommended! 

Is this something like bending over shoveling snow for hours on end during an earthquake?  I bet no old porkers like me did that work,  for long.  Gotta be brutal  work for an extremely well fit person.  Please describe the working conditions.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Dieselbob posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

We've had to hand fire the 765 a couple of times when the stoker failed. All we did was throw the coal on the "pot" and let the stoker blast jets blow it out into the fire bed as usual. The "pot" is just inside the door and it's easy to place coal on it. It is where the stoker normally delivers the coal and where the blast jets blow it put into the fire.

With 90 square feet of fire (think a 9 x 10 foot room with a fire on the floor) there is no way anyone could consistently get coal in the front corners with a scoop.

Rich, when a stoker fails, what usually goes wrong?

In the 765's case it was tie plates in the coal that caused the problems both times. In one case the stroker engine stripped the gears in the tender and in the other incident it sheared the bolt.

Are the tie plates generally caused by scooping up coal off of a pile on the ground?

Tom Tee posted:

Is this something like bending over shoveling snow for hours on end during an earthquake?  I bet no old porkers did that work,  for long.  Gotta be brutal  work for an extremely well fit person.  Please describe the working conditions.

It's a lot easier than shoveling snow, especially when it's a wet heavy one. 

Under most operating conditions you're not shoveling all the time.  The real skill involved is knowing when and where to place the coal, plus keeping one eye on fire, one eye on the water glass (and firing the injector when needed,) one eye on the pressure gauge and one eye out the fireman's side of the locomotive.  Plus doing the dance while the locomotive sways in one direction and the tender in another.  Also, with the exception of photo runbys, you want to run a clean stack and put out the least black smoke possible.

There is a certain amount of fitness involved, but you don't have to be a Charles Atlas.  Good cardio...

Rusty

Tom Tee posted:

Is this something like bending over shoveling snow for hours on end during an earthquake?  I bet no old porkers did that work,  for long.  Gotta be brutal  work for an extremely well fit person.  Please describe the working conditions.

Your derogatory comment about old porkers aside, it was hard work in a cramped, hot, dirty, and smelly space.

My experience on WMSR 2-8-0 734 was watching a young fireman in his 20s do a lot of hand-bombing to keep the fire even, despite the fact that 734 had a stoker. On the 14 miles of steady 1.75% grade out of Cumberland, the pace was steady, but the last 2 miles into Frostburg (near 3% grade) required the fireman to have his fire in good order.
Fall trips with wet leaves on the rails in this part of the trip caused many slips, and quick corrective action by both engineer and fireman to keep the fire from going up the stack.

TRAINS magazine had a series of articles in the 1970s-80s by Lloyd Arkinstall and John Crosby about their experiences firing PRR steamers back in the 1940s. Well worth the effort to read. Any old Steamtown hands (Bellows Falls location) remember the exploits of "Back-corners Bailey"?

 Yes does anyone have anything on a CP pacific they can share ? (1293,1286,1278, 1246, 1238 to name a few)

The manual for the "street" stoker is on the net. Two speeds of the helicoid. Gear driven with a clutch to disengage when desired. They recommend hand firing until steam is up. Manually variable steam jets to spread the coal.

Part Two • Inside the cab.

Notice the steam coming off the boiler, the coal in the tender and the shovel above the coal.

If you like this video, hit me up with a "Like" if you don't. Take your bucket of rusty railroad spikes and walk away. Shot yesterday with an iPhone 7 Plus, edited on my iPhone using, iMovie.

Gary: A rail-fan, learning by doing.

trainroomgary posted:

Part Two • Inside the cab.

Notice the steam coming off the boiler, the coal in the tender and the shovel above the coal.

 

If you like this video, hit me up with a "Like" if you don't. Take your bucket of rusty railroad spikes and walk away. Shot yesterday with an iPhone 7 Plus, edited on my iPhone using, iMovie.

Gary: A rail-fan, learning by doing.

It appears you poked your camera in when we had the locomotive parked and banked for the night.  The steam you mention is actually smoke exiting from the small space around the fire door because the stack had a cap on it.

It's definitely not what one would consider a larger engine and is by far our smallest.  It's a 25 ton 4-4-0 with a grate area not much bigger than a large parlor stove (OK, maybe a little exaggerated, but not by much).  On good quality coal with a good fireman, it's a fairly easy engine to fire.  If you're not careful though it can give you a bad day trying to make steam.  I did a good portion of my training on this locomotive, and I'm very happy I did.  It makes our other larger locomotives seem almost boring to work on because they lack some of the challenge of the small engine.

OGR Webmaster posted:

Dieselbob posted:

OGR Webmaster posted:

We've had to hand fire the 765 a couple of times when the stoker failed. All we did was throw the coal on the "pot" and let the stoker blast jets blow it out into the fire bed as usual. The "pot" is just inside the door and it's easy to place coal on it. It is where the stoker normally delivers the coal and where the blast jets blow it put into the fire.

With 90 square feet of fire (think a 9 x 10 foot room with a fire on the floor) there is no way anyone could consistently get coal in the front corners with a scoop.

Rich, when a stoker fails, what usually goes wrong?

In the 765's case it was tie plates in the coal that caused the problems both times. In one case the stroker engine stripped the gears in the tender and in the other incident it sheared the bolt.

Since I haven't seen an answer to Diesel Bob's question yet, I gotta ask just HOW do you end up with tie plates in your coal supply?

 I DON'T have to ask if that is BAD,

Doug

Dieselbob posted:

Are the tie plates generally caused by scooping up coal off of a pile on the ground?

Yes.