Has LC+ replaced TMCC engines?

Good observation.

going down to 3 systems or levels.

conventional, LC+ and Legacy for the high end.

I still feel the blue tooth is the future, but time will tell....

Legacy BT anyone ?

I don't think there is a cause and effect there - even without LC+, TMCC was dying out, offered in only a few things.  Legacy sort of took over.  

LC+ is something new, and not replacing anything.  I wouldn' mind LC+ speeders and all, but I doubt I will see them anytime soon.

TMCC is just "Legacy Lite". Why bother putting in your fanciest electronics in something that has no real features to take advantage of it.

Lion Chief Plus is an entirely different system, and does not offer the same level of features as Legacy, and will never replace it. It appears to be intended for the entry level market or one step above. I see it as radio control as opposed to command control.

Lionel will never go blue tooth, because that assumes that the customer has access to WiFi. They want to provide self contained control systems.

Elliot, Blue tooth does not require WiFi, my Bluetooth headset and phone connect without wifi without any trouble.

Doug

Oops! Shows you what I know about that technology. I don't own a tablet or any blue tooth devices. I leave that to my wife.

I just mentioned it to her and her reaction was "Oh... How do they get the blue tooth in the train?" I told her Bachmann puts it in their HO and N scale engines. Then she told me how it works. Sounds a little more interesting, but still not for me.

Bottom line, it's not WiFi that's required, but a controlling device such as a phone or tablet.

Elliot, I am so far from being a Gadget Geek, as to not even be on the same planet, but my understanding of Bluetooth technology is that blue tooth devices communicate directly with each other, though some devices have a rather short range, about 30 feet unobstructed.

Doug

 I'd have to re-watch the Atlas presentation at York but I believe that the range

 was equal to or farther than TMCC... 60 to 90 feet I think. So the Bluetooth controller

 would talk directly to the engine. Similar to the LC+ way of doing things....

LC+ seems to be the new TMCC with less operating features. Once Lionel programs the controller to operate all LC+ locos that should be all she wrote for TMCC. I guess when our TMCC controllers bite the dust we will have to pony up for the Legacy system to operate the TMCC locos.

TMCC pretty much started to be phased out after Legacy came on the scene with the exception of a few locos and small motorized units.

Still think Lionel missed the boat and should have kept TMCC as Legacy Lite, rather than go to LionChief.  Marklin uses this philosophy with their Digital Delta system, in that basic starter sets have digital (Delta) control and cab also be controlled by their top of the line digital equipment.

Atlas? Wasn't it WBB that did the Bluetooth presentation?

A lot of this doesn't make sense to me?

LC+ does have cruise which is a plus, but Lionel could easily use back emf motor driver as the cost effective way to add cruise to TMCC.

The bigger issue is cost and single controller to run all your engines.  Whether a top of the Line Legacy or a Middle TMCC unit. 

Price point matter.  So either cost of legacy comes down, because you can't afford $1000 steam and $800 Diesel or you give up command and run LC+.

If TMCC wasn't viable ERR would have dried up and no one would be back fitting cruise.  G

It would be a smart move by Lionel and MTH to get together and offer the same control system in 3 rail O gauge like all of the HO and N gauge companies do including MTH. Then all of the other 3 rail O gauge companies such Atlas, 3rd rail, and Weaver could also use which ever system is chosen.

I know that have been bad blood between Lionel and MTH in the past by they have been working with each other in the past 8 years in regard to MTH selling their pre World War 2 trains using the Lionel name under the Lionel Corporation banner.

I think there are a few factors here.

One, they haven't sold many TMCC controlled locomotives the last few years.

Two, they haven't sold many of the better quality semi-scale locomotives the last few years, particularly the steamers (Hudson, Pacific, Mikado). I don't know if many forum members remember the posts a couple of years ago about the lack of traditional size engines that were above starter set level locomotives. The Mikado was sold in TMCC, but the other TMCC steamers were the Hudson jr. and the Berkshire jr. The LC+ Hudson and Pacific are the larger "baby" size.

I think both factors have contributed to the sales success of the LC+ locomotives.

But, to be honest I think the LC+ locomotives have sold better than TMCC engines would have sold. One reason is the cruise feature (probably would have required Electric Railroad Cruise Commanders instead of TMCC). I'm surprised by a few forum participants who normally just buy scale locomotives that are enjoying the LC+ locomotives.

Good point, but Lionel produced an awful lot of 28000 series TMCC engine like the Hudson and Pacific that are the models used with LC+ now.  So they have the tooling.

The TMCC and EMF Cruise are pretty old tech so you think they got their investment back and could have easily lowered the price and still had profit room.

They could have gone with a simple remote that addressed a TMCC engine with ID #1 only.  Granted this had issues with multiple engines, but would meet the standard of remote sets for new comers or small budgets.  Once upgraded to TMCC or Legacy, fully backward compatible.

The + of LC+ is cruise.  The - is dedicated remote and marginal feature control.

The + of TMCC is more features and multiple control methods.  The - is cruise.  Lionel back EMF is a $64 MSRP addition.  So the real cost to replace a DCDR at $40 is only $24 increase in the price of the locomotive.  Plus no tach like the current LC+.

It is a novelty now, the question is does LC+ continue or wane once folks grow into a command layout.   G 

I think LC+ was used to replace engines that were a few years ago getting TMCC tech, but I do not believe LC+ is replacing TMCC.  In my opinion Legacy replaces TMCC.

LC+ is just designed to fill another niche in the market.  People who are looking for a level of control beyond the transformer but not DCS/Legacy.  And one can argue pros and cons, but one huge pro to LC/LC+ is that the remote is not just controlling engine ID 1.  That way you can run many engines at a time without issues (other than grabbing a different remote, which to me, is not an issue - even at 10 remotes).

LOL, have you tried running 6 or 7 trains using 6 or 7 remotes at the same time. Better put sponge bumpers on those cabeese.

If I'm running 7 trains at 1 time, for me, 6 of them are just going in circles while I play with train # 7.  When I'm done with train number 7, I would set down remote and move on to next train.  Again, I know this is just me and is why I said, 10 remotes is a non-issue for me.   I am really only going to be playing 1-2 trains at a time while the rest go about their day

Not really!  I have run six at a time, or five LC+ with one conventional.  One thing to remember: with the LC+ steamers - at least all of mine - if you set the LC+ on each remote to the same angle (say 3 o'clock), you get exactly the same speed out of each.  Do it with a diesel in the mix and you get almost the same speed, within one foot per minute.   So they are not going to sneak up one behind the other.  No need for cabeese bumpers. 

I do paint a larger number on each remote than the tiny one Lionel puts on each, so its quick to tell . . . but I put all the remotes just side by side on the bench by my ZW-L and its no problem.  

I run my trains the same way, set the Legacy engines and send them on their way and then run LC+ with hands on experience. Sometimes I feel Legacy is like the Showtime oven, set it and forget it.

Art

My opinion is that LionChief+ is the future as it works in the same way as any remote control appliance.  You just purchase the product and it comes with a remote- basic, minimal programming, easy and convenient to use.

I envision Legacy technology being phased out after it reaches the end of its useful life in a few years. Why would Lionel embark on expensive new development when they have simpler, and more cost effective technology in hand?  Time will tell.

The perception of going from Legacy to LC+ as a downgrade?

( <--hypothetical Legacy customer's reaction to only having LC+ going forward)

---PCJ

Do you have 10 ovens in your house?  Without the universal remote (still with draw backs), the number of remotes in the draw just for a TV, DVD and Stereo seems a waste.

It is interesting. It leads me to believe for some (many?) multiple remote is not an issue.  G

Maybe so, but making the LC+ compatible w/ Legacy, without all the Legacy features, would've been a better move, IMO.

If the post concerning Bluetooth directly in the engine. If no control system existed, might be able to get the ball rolling. But not with DCS, DCC, TMCC, and Legacy already in place. Way too much development repeating something that is already there.

Now it may be possible to use say an Adruino or a Raspberry Pi to get Bluetooth signals and convert them to serial port and send them either to a TMCC base or a Legacy Base. The key thing is you need a "Bluetooth stack" a set of functions to take over handling all the Bluetooth functions, that's the killer. I would assume any board would have a set of serial port functions available.

I was investigating what would happen if I switched to N scale. Kato is making some *nice* stuff including the Silver Pilot loco, and my wife keeps on talking about moving to a condo. Took me about two hours to find out, there is still no WiFi to DCC direct device, presently you have to have a PC to decode WiFi signals and send them on their way to serial port I guess. Somebody was developing something, but stopped. But that isn't a show stopper, there are some small PCs that I could put up with (I prefer gamer towers that can fit the biggest of video cards). My search stopped when I starting thinking about how does one control an N scale switch with DCC when running on the floor (Yeah I know, who runs N scale on the floor). With TMCC I can either run wires from that IC Controls thingy or I can put an SC-2 in the area, but dang hoss they take up space, and I can't see how I could get wires under the track of N scale.

Conventional runner here, so I know absolutely nothing about Legacy but do have a couple of LC+ locomotives now.  Turn the transformers all the way up and off you go.

The decision to make starter sets fixed track voltage really was an excellent business decision. Training entry-level users away from the variable-voltage mentality will grow people toward Legacy.  While many may never move past that starter set, those who do already grasp the fixed voltage "way of doing things".

If/when LC+ becomes the standard in starter sets (as opposed to LC), it will be hard to justify conventional control in new product offerings.  And I say that as a conventional guy. 

If bought LC /LC+ locos and then wanted to upgrade my layout to Legacy and found out that I could not use that to control by LC/LC+ locomotives in LC mode I would be miffed. Not having researched the the tech. I do not know if there is a away or plans in the future to to have the Legacy control the LC locos. When explaining this to people getting into the hobby, they are have the same response, If I buy LC and then want Legacy I have to buy new locos? Lionel should have had Legacy light or at least a 3 pos slider to go from Conv > LC > Legacy. Or the ability to buy plug n play boards to upgrade.

I don't think LC or LC+ will ever be replacing Legacy. Lionel has already embarked on and is still developing a new control system, LCS which is Legacy based. LC/LC+ are for totally different markets than Legacy LCS. If LC/LC+ replaces anything, I think it will be the conventional sets.

And for conventional sets, they were pretty scarce in the new catalogs that just came out last week. I will have to have a second look, but I think besides some dealer only sets there were only a couple other conventional sets listed. Spent most of my time in the Signature catalog though. 

 Actually I prefer the multiple remotes. I let my visitors use them. Especially the

 little guys. I'd rather have them drop one of those than a Legacy or DCS remote.

 There was some discussion on the last podcast that Lionel is in the back room

 discussing a multi engine LC+ remote. Probably in the very early stages, but it

 sounds like they have heard the cries of the users and are looking at it.

I'll be honest, I had gotten away from buying Lionel products for several years.  With LC+ I've changed my mine, best bang for the buck for reasonably priced O gauge trains.  I believe that this line will be Lionel's biggest seller.  Anybody can run them without a big investment.  

Having the LC+ is a great shot in the arm for the semi scale products. I am a scale runner and I will probably buy a camel back and let my son just have fun.

The Legacy remote is really not for 5 year olds. And he is little rough on the slide switch.

I don't know what I am going to do though if the remote is misplaced, or broken... this has been a current issue with some of his toys.

Lionel should have made the TMCC/ Legacy compatible as well, and who knows can a ERR R4 board be plugged in for an upgrade?

Why not in the future? I would purchase quite a few more LC+ engines.

We are getting subject drift here.  Given the same engine, but one with TMCC and  cruise and one with LC+ at the same price point or maybe with in $20-40 of each other, which would you buy?  Or which would be bought in greater numbers?

Not comparing LC+ to Legacy.  But with a Command Layout and plenty of nice semi scale Command Engines available I personally don't have the need for a LC or + other than the PE for the X-mas Tree.

Bottom line there are relatively no TMCC engines or conventional sets available.  G

So with LC+ you can shut it off and run it traditionally correct?  With LC you have to turn the voltage up.  Does this not burn out things that run off track power?

G, wouldn't the appearance of the LionMaster Challenger with "Legacy features" in the 2015  Signature catalog suggest it is Legacy that is replacing TMCC?

I believe LionChief is meant to address a different demographic. Besides new inductees into the hobby  also a growing culture of mobility, with people who are less likely to remain in a home for more than three years and many of those homes smaller in size. The LionChief system makes it easy to assemble and disassemble a small layout in a matter of minutes as compared to hours it takes with a full feature command control system.

If Lionel includes a multi channel remote as has been hinted, to address LionChief engines. The system will be perfect for the culture of mobility that continues to expand each year.

Matt, Legacy did become the new TMCC, but the price point seemed to jump with it.  TMCC later in life became the less expensive remote/command controlled train.

LC/LC+ is like a new Class but it seems to be replacing the TMCC market.  Has some new or different features, but has some TMCC features missing.  So it is not a one for one swap.

Does seem like a cost cutting issue though.  I imagine the transformer is one of the more expensive items to make in a set.  Going to LC allowed going to DC, and now a small CV wal wart replaces the CW-80, yet the price point of the set is about the same.

I guess Lionel filled one gap, and opened another.  This question was generated when a number of folks started to ask how hard was it to upgrade their LC+ to TMCC.  Indicating they wanted those missing functions.  G

GGG:   Honest question here - you suggest folks are wanting an upgrade from LC+ to TMCC for "missing functions".   Any ideas as to what those might be?

LC+ has fan-driven smoke, good sound, constant speed, low speed running, remote couplers, lighting effects.  

Those seem like the features most in demand, any ideas as to what might be missing (then we can ask Lionel to add them to LC+ on the next version LC++).   [I would like whistle-steam, but that has nothing to do with TMCC]

Who wants to bet that at some point in the not so different future, Lionel will sell a "Two-Pack", that is a LC+ Steam Engine a LC+ Diesel with one two-channel remote in a single package? And what's to prevent Lionel from bumping up the detail level and putting out a Lionmaster-like set with LC+ controllers? The marketing and product possibilities with LC+ are endless.

I believe this is being over-thought. 

LionChief and LionChief+ aren't designed or intended to replace Command Control

TMCC - or TrainMaster Command Control is not dead. TrainMaster was just a branding name for the initial system - Command Control has just evolved into the the Legacy product. Lionel's top of the line Command Control has always had evolutions; 2.0, 4.0, Legacy (I may have missed some numbers). the underpinning have always been there, just called by whatever they wanted to call it for distinction.

LionChief is a basic closed system. No bulky transformer, simplistic to operate. The intention is a one-off gift or entry into toy trains. 

LionChief Plus is the same as above, but also can be used if you have an existing set with transformer - you have the ability to use a remote, or run your LC+ Locomotive conventionally by transformer. This is the route Lionel is going probably with all their 'conventional' locomotives and mid-level sets.

Notice the scale Camelback is being produced as a LionChief+ product. I would imagine we'll see some other 'scale' small steam or diesel LC+ product

When I first got into this hobby, my first set was the 2380 NYC Geep with Command Control. What I thought interesting (and confusing at the time) was the set came with the TrainMaster Cab-1, but you had to purchase the Command base separately.

Somehow I missed this.  What catalog is it listed in?  This is fantastic news.I must order/pre-oreder one now.  The only LC+ I knew was scale was the GP7 diesel. 

With TMCC you can control lighting remotely, you can turn sounds on and off remotely or adjust volume, you can turn smoke on and off remotely.  You have one remote controlling any TMCC engine and up to 99.  You can have Lashups or consist.

With LC+ you do not have those remote control features.  You have to stop the engine and manual change a switch for smoke and sounds only.  You have no control over lighting. 

There are significant capability differences.  G