Have Lionel and MTH irreversibly raised the bar?

Lionel and MTH raised the bar so high they can not themselves jump over it. Both companies have quality issues IMO. I will continue to buy Williams, used locomotives and run conventional.   If I want high end I will buy 3rd Rail products. No Lionel or MTH for me,at least not new.

 

Dale H

No, I don't feel the same way.  Whistle steam and other steam effects, swinging bells, lit marker lights, depleting coal loads etc. have absolutely no bearing on my purchasing decisions. 

 

The ONLY thing that affects my purchasing decisions is if a locomotive is an accurate model of a GN or NP locomotive in 1952, and that it is command control and sound equipped with a reliable control system.  If I find older brass that is not sound and command control equipped, I add those features with aftermarket equipment.  If I find these pieces with no sound / command control, I expect to purchase it at a discounted price.

 

GNNPNUT 

I would have to agree with you that now that the bar has been raised, it would be hard to justify a $1,200 Locomotive without features to one that does.  I understand fully that in some cases the level of detail may be the reason why a locomotive without features may be as costly as one that does.  The new tooling costs alone could justify such an offering'

 

To answer your question: I would definitely want the locomotive with the features over one that doesn't.

I would rather have three or four lesser detailed smaller locomotives that look great and run well under command control than one expensive super detailed loco that only runs on large radii track.

 

 

 

It seems to me that the more sophisticated these engines get, the more incidents of failure seem to surface.  What I mean to say is that the more "bells and whistles" (no pun intended) you have the more things can go wrong.  Today's offerings are technological dreams that most of us really enjoy but when the smoke don't smoke and the bell don't ring those dreams turn into nightmares.  Is it worth all the money?  If it makes you happy the answer is YES!  Don't get me wrong, I love the smoke, whistles and bells but at some point, they will become unreasonable.

 

Chief Bob (Retired)     

I am am one of those who revels in "feature bloat".  Vision line is the Microsoft Word of engines -- more bells and whistles than most people will ever need.  (That's the first time I've ever used the 'bells and whistles' analogy when it actually pertained to the subject!).

I will buy the feature laden locomotives and stock over the more vanilla stuff every time.

But that's what's great about this hobby.  There is stuff for everyone.  Rail king RTR sets and Williams stuff for those who prefer it.  And Visionline, Masterline and etcetera for those of us who are immorally  spending our children's inheritance as quickly as we can before we die.

- timbo

I would prefer to see more attention paid to reliability and less to "new and amazing" operating features. The whistle steam, blowdown, swinging bell, etc. are cool - but they add a lot of cost and also each one adds to the probability that the total unit will have some kind of problem. If you've got five gadgets and each one is 95% reliable, basic statistics tell us that the probability that something is wrong with one of them is 23%. Bad odds. As it is most of my new, fancy locomotives have had some sort of malfunction - usually simple stuff that wasn't that hard to fix, but still annoying when you're paying $500-1500 for a "toy" locomotive. 

 

I like my Lionel S3 Northern with Legacy, cylinder steam, etc. - but I'm just as happy with my ten-years-older Weaver brass version of the same engine with fewer features and fewer problems. 

I feel the Lionel S3 is a very cool engine.  It runs great.  I am a bell and whistle guy and have been very happy with the trains I have.  Thank you MTH and Lionel for making these great engines.

I am with Timbo.  There is something for everyone.  I like accurate steam locomotives, am hoping for battery/RC/ minimal sound, and cannot stand smoke, either from cigarettes or models.  I prefer accurate track, so I am forced to build in 17/64 scale, and I absolutely have to have tail beams. I am truly happy that other modelers can have steam coming out of injectors, whistles, and drain cocks, and smoke out of the stack.

I am in the bell and whistle camp too (and also fantasy paint schemes) although the fact that almost every feature-laden engine I have has eventually displayed QC or technical issues makes me think twice before buying any more. 

 

I think the implication of the OP's comments is that features only available through Lionel/MTH are squeezing the likes of Williams out. I think there is something in this but I expect that the aftermarket for Williams' fine products will thrive. After all, the market for K-Line's better products is alive and well years after the company itself folded.

Only for the select few who have been able to purchase the high-end steam locomotives and the Legacy control system.

 

Most people who operate O gauge never see the Legacy steam locomotives.

 

 

Andrew

The secondary market is super over saturated with stuff. Watch a Trainz auction and see what that $1200 loco sells for.

 

    Bill T.

There is something for everyone.  The bar has been set high, so-to-speak.  But, along the way, there are increments available for purchase, that do not come up to that bar.   These units will fill the niche market of those who purchase what they desire, and be very happy with their respective purchases.  It's why this hobby is great.  Something for everyone. 

I had planed on a few sets of passenger cars this summer but, now I will wait for LED

versions. 

Locomotives I still will buy conventional / PS-1 for the right price

 

Tom N 

I buy trains like autos, fewer Mickey Mouse gadgets to break as soon as you get it off

the lot or out of the store.  The trend has been toward making items as large as possible with as much added as possible, to escalate the cost, and profit, of individual

items.  I have no problem with those that are willing to pay for that.....I want other

choices, and more choices, of the many varieties of rolling stock that once appeared on

American railroads.  Many people do not have the huge basements with wide radii to

operate that....I don't want shelved doorstops....with Weaver closing, and maybe not

having the "bells and whistles", if that is where the trend is, and all that sells, and is

the reason, it will pass me by, for I am not going there.  Less is not more.

Ultimately, It is all a matter of opinion. Who's brag is more fact? I think it's all a big hoot!. But, at who's expense? This is my opinion.

Dale,

Very happy to see you post here.  I've learned a tremendous amount of various wiring schemes from reading your detailed posts.  Thank you.

I read PJB's post to mean that some of MTH's new scale steamers are priced similar to Lionel's scale models yet MTH's models don't have comparable features (mainly whistle steam effect). It use to be MTH's models were several hundred dollars less than comparable Lionel, but with MTH's latest catalog that is not the case, although MTH's Big Boy will be about $500 less then the Legacy version.

 

How has MTH raised the bar with features? I am curious because I pre-ordered the Triplex, which will be my first PS3.0 engine.

Some people always respond to this type of thread by saying the "accuracy" (presumably in the level of detail?) of the model drives the decision.  I could never understand that.  Define accuracy. I don't think I've ever seen a real steam locomotives that doesn't have whistle steam, blow-down, etc.  Ergo, a model steamer without these features would be less "accurate."  IMO, at some point, the level of detail - in terms of piping and rivets - is academic. It doesn't add to the realism of a locomotive gracefully traversing the layout.  Just MO.   

Peter

I'll always be happy with my "low tech" conventional stuff.  Lots of postwar lionel and Williams.  My biggest consideration has always been, I want to be able to fix it myself.  I have a BS in Aerospace Engineering and I don't even want to look at some of this newer stuff.  I do enjoy seeing the high-tech bells and whistles, and even my postwar stuff (mostly accessories) takes some tweaking to get it running well, but I hear more and more about people having major issues with brand new engines.  I mean I suppose if you can afford these engines, you can afford to fix them.

Thats what make the world go around. Some value detail over features, myself included. If I want those other features I will create them myself. If I want more detail I can do that too. The hobby for me is building or modifying trains and make it my own. Not simply buying something someone else has created, putting it on the tracks and turning a knob or handle. 

 

Pete

 

 

Something for everybody and something for every wallet.  Enjoy and have fun.

 

Marty

 

The Big Two,Lionel & MTH manufacture trains for the entry level modeler and the bells and whistles modelers so we still have options for all budgets,no different than buying a Chevrolet or a Cadillac.

Mikey

The only way to be truly "accurate" in this sense is to boil water using crushed coal or oil and not use a motor, gearbox and electronics.

 

And don't forget your "Ove-Gloves."

 

Rusty

i don't own any of these "cutting-edge" locomotives, but i've seen many run.  though smoke units are interesting gimmicks, there is not one steam/smoke effect that comes even close to an actual live steamer.  i burn coal (in 7.5" gauge) and even with that fuel, i rarely see visible smoke come out the stack.  the whistle smoke which is apparently supposed to mimic steam being exhausted does not look anything like a real whistle in operation and the blowdown effect is simply pathetic.  when i blow down at the end of a run, there is a huge plume of steam, not the wisps i see exhausting from the models.  probably the best (ie. most visible) running effect to capture would be safety valves popping off, but i don't think this is a feature of any model, at least not that i've seen so far.

 

i actually do like the depleting coal load which does appear somewhat prototypical.

 

i also like basic sounds, but nothing more than a 1st generation QSI unit would provide.  cab chatter is annoying after a while.  wheel slip effects when the wheels do not actually slip (or go in/out of sync for that matter) look foolish.  have to admit i do like the newer whistle effects (audio, not visual) that have evolved greatly from the older sound units, but that's about it.

 

and though i've never seen this function, i hope manufacturers research "swinging" bells.  many later steam locomotives (eg NKP Berkshires) had yoke mounted bells, but had clappers that were pneumatically activated (ie. they did not swing).

 

 

but the real bottom line is whether these gimmicky models will be operating in another 20+ years.  i have a 1915 Flyer train that, after 100 years, still has 100% of its original functionality.

 

cheers...gary

I cringed when I saw the EM-1 released with some Northern Pacific decals on it...

 

It was a just a travesty to the memory of the Northern Pacific and the original Z-5 Yellowstone.

 

If your going to ask for 1,200 or more for a locomotive, please do not insult my intelligence too.

 

Oh for the humanity.....

 

 

 

This subject gets a thread every so often; I usually enjoy it and usually join in (see?), when I catch it.

 

I'm involved in a little mini-project that is aimed at a Lionel scale J3a Hudson (cab #5444). I've changed the drivers to a Scullin/Boxpok mix, am removing the non-J3a classification lights, shaping the headlight a bit on top to look more like the prototype (later Pyle type), and intend to replace/shorten the drawbar.

 

Otherwise, this locomotive is exactly what I want and expect from Lionel (and MTH, mechanically); it is well-detailed (and captures the essence of a J3a better than any of the models, to me), has TMCC/sound/no swinging bell/no whistle smoke/add-on and cast-in details. It looks like a J3a. It feels like one. It has basic command functionality, and is well-made.

 

Any more and I'm not interested - oh, I might be interested in the loco, but not because of the "features". The bar was mostly high enough for me ten years ago - excepting the 4-chuff issue.

 

I would love the Later "modernized" Lionel J3a, but only if they model it correctly. A mere Legacy/Vision/"feature" upgrade will not open my wallet. 

 

 

 

 

D500 - sounds like a great little project!  Post a photo when you can.  Getting back to the crux of the issue, however, the question really is - basically, if say Lionel offered that same engine in 2 levels of trim - one with none of the "innovative raise the bar" features and one with additional features (such as whistle steam, dynamo and blow-down and depleting coal load) - would you be OK paying the same exact price for either locomotive? 

 

Peter

I believe the bar will continue to be raised. Improved technology has no end in sight. I am very selective in terms of what we buy, but I really like all of the new neat features. Anyone who has a whistle steam engine and does not like it, well I have not met them yet.

Don,t get me wrong I like the steam coming from the whistle,glowing firebox,swinging bell,smoke from the smoke stack.But thats putting a lot of stress on the motor and if its pulling a fare size train.Or going up a grade to.I have been running my j and it pulls like the real thing.Because most of the power is going to the motor,It does not have to share it with other stuff.Or well I might add some sound to it.But thats just my thought about this.

Sorry but, none of those "extra features" put any additional "stress" on the big DC motor.

I am with Hot Water - correct dimensions are not assumed.  Check out your cylinders on that Hudson - they may be undersized.  For me, number one is correct dimensions, including boiler tapers, cylinders, main frames, tail beams ( I do put up with compromises there - my tail beams are all narrowed so my larger locomotives can make it around O-148 curves).  My MTH scale Hudson was so far off I replaced everything below the running boards including the main frame.  I do like it.  Some day I shall get a factory reset, and enjoy the whistle and bell sounds.

IMHO, there is not such thing as "raising a bar" too high. These are toys/models just like our cars and TV and so on, customers like more innovations all the time. They keep to develop because the company wants to sell more product and customers desire more features AND some customers get bored and want new things!...I believe this to be a natural human desire, to always change and perhaps improve...

       
       


Yeah, but you're pretty much getting the engine that way regardless. 

Since this discussion keeps going so far afield, here's yet another example:  assume Lionel and company XYZ issue  big boys. Lionel's is the VLBB version with the three speakers, depleting coal load and all the smoke features. XYZ version is identical in physical appearance and has only stack smoke and basic sounds from its one speaker. Both are issued at approximately the same price.  Do you differentiate?  Is one more desirable?

Would somebody please explain what a tail beam is?

I think you've answered your own question, as I am sure was intended!

My rant will begin with this, Lionel overcharges for everything in my opinion. look at how much there GE EVO Hybrid went for. MTH sold theirs for 529.99 about 300 dollars cheaper and MTH Had a lab car that went with theirs. Lionel's Big boy is 1,100+ dollars expensive than what MTH is selling theirs, they said in their catalog once 4014 is in operation, they will take the sounds they record and make it into an upgrade sound set to any 4014 Proto 2.0 or Proto 3.0. Their 4014 has the oil tender. Now MTH was the original creator of the Smoking whistle as their G Gauge Triplex had it as well as a quiling whistle. MTH Sells their engines a lot cheaper but can do alot more than an Lionel locomotive in my honest opinion.

 

I conclude my rant.

 

I think the minimum wage in China is causing companies to raise prices. I remember that Lionel sold their 2006 Legacy Big Boy for 1,799.99 which was a trooper for one of my friends I know. I really think that the last decent Lionel locomotive made was that BB. A lot of the things I see, I shake my head and say "why did they do that?"

 

MTH has had some head scratching issues, but once they started expanding their products and Proto 3.0 they made some great products that will always blow Lionel away.

 

MTH sells an engine then sometimes they have a set for that engine for 100-125 more. That is a great steal and a deal. For Years an MTH Starter set included track, and transformer, and 3 cars with your DCS able locomotives. Lionel is copying MTH's logic by making Lion chief sets that the cars are not nice and a lot more money.

 

I am not bashing anyone just my 2 cents.