headlight location, location, location

Most diesels still have sealed beam filiment lamps on them for both head and ditch lights.  Some new engines like the Amtrak one replacing the GE's have LED head and ditch lights.  I suspect LED's will slowly take over from the others once they are proven by the few that try them.  Shedding snow and life span in the harsh RR enviroment will need to be proven in the real world.    As far as steamers, who knows, it was RR specific, PRR carried them up high, either on a shelf off the boiler face, or right in front of the stack after rebuilds on some engines.  NYC was centered ect.  Some like the GN were down low due to the cross compound air pumps being on the boiler face on some engines.  C&O might have been low to undercut fog common in the mountain valleys.  Those that know have long gone to the roundhouse in the sky.  Have to ask them when we join them at the end of this life's journey.

I've seen a few with LED's, but almost all of the engines out here on the Transcon use 32 volt sealed beam lamps -- the standard since 1949.  They can easily be replaced in the field by employees in train or engine service, and they are not stolen from the locomotives for home use because of the voltage rating.  And they're cheap, a big factor on the railroad.

If I have a chance to get up close to an LED headlight, I'll post photos of its details.

One problem i've been reading about in cold weather is that LED lights, not generating heat to speak of, don't melt any snow buildup on them!  Don't know if or how this problem has been addressed... 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

One problem i've been reading about in cold weather is that LED lights, not generating heat to speak of, don't melt any snow buildup on them!  Don't know if or how this problem has been addressed... 

Mitch

Definitely a REAL problem, i.e. insufficient heat to melt snow. Such has happened many time in the Chicago area, when a snow storm blows the heavy & wet snow into/onto traffic signals, resulting in motorists unable to see the color of the snow-covered LED lights.

Also, for what it's worth, EMD diesel units use 32volt sealed beam headlight bulbs, with large dropping resistors in the circuit, in order to reduce the local control/battery voltage from 64/74 volts DC, to the standard 32 volt bulbs.

Concerning the location of the twin sealed beam headlights, from above the windshields to inset into the short hood nose, much discussion from all the different railroads, over many, MANY years has continued to change the mounting locations. One railroad complained of personal injuries from contacting the nose-mounted headlights (they are pretty hot) during crew changes, while other railroads did not like the high mounted, over the windshield location, since the reflection off fog/dust/etc. effected the view. Guess you can't please everybody.

On a high mounted headlight on a diesel with a low nose, were there reflection issues off the top of the nose for the crew?

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

On a high mounted headlight on a diesel with a low nose, were there reflection issues off the top of the nose for the crew?

Yes, in very dusty and/or foggy conditions. Thus, many railroads specified the headlights be mounted in the front of the short nose. Then there were complaints of people "burning" themselves on the hot bulbs. Apparently, the crews didn't think to put the headlight on "Dim".

Were not some of the nose tops painted a darker color to prevent this?

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Were not some of the nose tops painted a darker color to prevent this?

Yes, but under the right weather/dust/snow conditions, that didn't help much when the headlights were/are mounted above & between the windshields.

@Hot Water posted:

Definitely a REAL problem, i.e. insufficient heat to melt snow. Such has happened many time in the Chicago area, when a snow storm blows the heavy & wet snow into/onto traffic signals, resulting in motorists unable to see the color of the snow-covered LED lights.

Also, for what it's worth, EMD diesel units use 32volt sealed beam headlight bulbs, with large dropping resistors in the circuit, in order to reduce the local control/battery voltage from 64/74 volts DC, to the standard 32 volt bulbs.

Concerning the location of the twin sealed beam headlights, from above the windshields to inset into the short hood nose, much discussion from all the different railroads, over many, MANY years has continued to change the mounting locations. One railroad complained of personal injuries from contacting the nose-mounted headlights (they are pretty hot) during crew changes, while other railroads did not like the high mounted, over the windshield location, since the reflection off fog/dust/etc. effected the view. Guess you can't please everybody.

I can say from my own vehicle, the LEDs definitely struggle with melting the snow here in Central NY.  In the last snow storm (think days, not months...)up completely, and the only clear patch on the headlights were the light comes through.  I've talked to mail carriers about this and they say its worse on their vehicles being both low to the ground and without projector lenses.

I have noticed that a lot of diesel locomotive inspection lights and step lights have gone LED though, you can see the color difference as they pass.

UPDATE: Here's a great video of an LED-equipped locomotive in the snow.

Thanks!

- Mario

I can tell you for certain why Santa Fe switched to nose-mounted headlights instead of the higher mount between the number boards.  It occurred when units still had conventional cabs and before the "warbonnet" era for modern locomotives.

I was the management representative to the System Cab Committee, which consisted of representatives named to the Committee by various unions.  We studied emerging technologies, as well as reports from safety committees and employees.

The operating craft unions on the Valley Division requested that we consider changing the standard headlight location to the front of the nose.  From Bakersfield to Richmond, California, they operated in a lot of tule (pronounced TOO-lee) fog at night, which is extremely dense, and occurs almost nightly when the air cools down during certain seasons.  Occasionally, they would have occasion to talk with their Southern Pacific counterparts, who did operate locomotives with low mounted headlights and high mounted Gyralites.  The SP employees advocated use of the low headlight and they actually had a choice.  We modified two locomotives and found that there was definitely a visibility difference in tule fog.  The visibility ahead was basically nil when the headlight was mounted high and illuminating the fog at windshield height, but visibility increased to a few hundred feet with the nose mounted light allowing the crew to look over the light instead of directly through the light.  The light being closer to the track made it easier to see the ground.

We were preparing to order conventional cab EMD GP60's and GE B40-8's.  For some reason I am not privy to, EMD quoted a very high charge for the low mounted headlight.  GE's charge was also high for that modification, but less than EMD's, and that prompted the railroad to order the GE's and hold off on ordering the GP60's.  Eventually the parties came to terms and the railroad purchased a number of blue and yellow GP60's in the 4000 Class.  After that, the Santa Fe standard headlight specification was nose mount.  The Mechanical Department made a blunder when the 200 Class SD70M's were ordered, and overlooked the special headlight specification.  As a result the locomotives were delivered with high mounted headlights and were never modified.  There was an internal dogfight, but it ran its course and things settled down.  Most, perhaps all, of that series of locomotives are now retired.

@Number 90 posted:

The visibility ahead was basically nil when the headlight was mounted high and illuminating the fog at windshield height, but visibility increased to a few hundred feet with the nose mounted light allowing the crew to look over the light instead of directly through the light.  The light being closer to the track made it easier to see the ground.

Is this what prompted the development of "ditch lights"? 

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Is this what prompted the development of "ditch lights"?

Mitch

Not really. I seem to recall that it was the British Columbia Rwy, that first came up with "Ditch Lights", which at first were portable and moved from lead unit to lead unit. The lights were also mounted at an angle, so that the light on the left side was pointed towards the right side, while the light on the right side was pointed towards the left side, resulting in better visibility around the curves at night. The feature then became wide spread, throughout Canada and the U.S..

Number 90,  I remember that era, post- Kodachrome years. Also, was the horn moved from the cab to the middle/ rear of the locomotive then also?

Example Fog in Stockton Sub-Division - December 21, 1986

We run multiple voltages for vintage headlights 32,36,64-75 volt units. Having little to no luck replacing these with LED, much less finding incandescent lamps either. most are only 30V now and burn out quickly. The Golden Glow headlights are just about impossible to find a lamp at this point. we have had to go to sealed beam 32V where ever possible. The regular lamps for markers, steps, cabs and gauges have gone LED, when the street cars went to LED that killed the Incandescent lamp market so I stocked up with a lifetime of those lamps.

The LED guys are saying they will never make the odd voltage headlights in LED. There is simply not enough demand for them. I would love to find them if someone has them. 64-75v are the only ones made. They dim those electronically. Plus getting the LED's FRA approved has been a real cost and deterrence to do the odd voltage market. Maybe they will trickle down some day. Chinese makers only want to make them by the millions. 

Acela 21 are all LED.   

@SPSF posted:

Number 90,  I remember that era, post- Kodachrome years. Also, was the horn moved from the cab to the middle/ rear of the locomotive then also?

Example Fog in Stockton Sub-Division - December 21, 1986

Thanks for posting that photo.  And that's medium fog for the Stockton Subdivision, and the date corresponds with the cab committee discussion.  In heavy tule fog, you might have been able to see as far as the second locomotive unit.

To answer your question: Yes, the movement of the horn was also a cab committee project of the same era.  The final orders of blue and yellow conventional cab GE and EMD units that I mentioned in my prior post were the first to be ordered with the air horn removed from atop the cab.

There was a lot of discussion about moving the horns.  There are a lot of sound waves in play, up on the long hood, from exhaust openings and fans, and placing the horn behind any of those interfered with the straight-line sound waves from the horns.  We were divided on that project.  I was concerned about liability issues in road crossing collisions.  My belief was that the horn was merely annoying on the cab, but the unions maintained that it was damaging to hearing.  Earplugs were mandatory by that time, and I opposed moving the horns, but the unions argued that other railroads were doing so.  We had access to audiological studies which indicated that the volume was reduced, especially on locomotives operating in high throttle positions, but still met or exceeded the required decibel level if the horn operating valve was fully opened.  So we agreed to move the horns.  On modern (post-1990) locomotives, the horn valve is electropneumatic, and prevents Engineers who don't like the sound of the horn from "light whistling", and better sound insulation in modern cabs makes the horn noise a non-issue.

In fog/snow conditions, it was nice to get a foreign unit in the lead with the low mounted headlights! NS had the high mounted ones and there was a lot of glare from the light bouncing back into your eyes!
Another nice thing was that after the merger with Conrail, many of the Conrail units had a separate switch for the ditch lights. On those units you could dim the headlight in order to get rid of the glare and still have the ditch lights on bright to see the road.

This is fascinating!

Thank you all for the real-world details!

@CentralFan1976 posted:

This is fascinating!

Thank you all for the real-world details!

Beat me to the punch, I was just about to post that I was not expecting so much interesting real world experience here.  So it seems if you are in dry areas for most part, location was not so important, but in rainy, snowy, foggy areas then headlight placement was significant (and probably safer).

Thanks!