I've heard about different ways of taking on water, but this seems extreme!
My neighbor has been going through old family photos and ran across this gem. He thought I would get a kick from it as well as help him with gathering some info. I was just wondering if anyone can ID the railroad, location (I am thinking Missouri) , and the engine type.
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Hi from Michigan: I did a Google Lens Search - This photo is not on the internet.
Gary: Hope to see you out rail-fanning. 🚂
You're thinking right about Missouri. The back of the photo references the Osage River and also Gallinipper bottom (different spelling?). Gallinipper creek is also Missouri however they are not particularly close to each other. Maybe someone will recognize the locomotive number and type to get you closer to identifying the actual location.
I think I found it. Not sure of who manufactured it
@cbojanower posted:I think I found it. Not sure of who manufactured it
Its a round builders plate on the boiler so it looks like a Baldwin Built loco with homemade drivers.
I just found these notes from the Oklahoma RR Museum that goes with the photo
BW photo, Frisco (SLSF) steam engine #595, 4-6-0 Mogul. Bulit
by Dickson 1902.
Still wonder what it was doing in the water for the photo
If you search for "Osage River flood Missouri" some other photos come up.
Is the bump in the water to the left of the guy standing another guy’s head?
I wonder if the water was deep enough to put the fire out.
J
The water is very close to the level of the grates. Hard to tell whether it drowned the fire or not.
I know the photo is old but sure looks like there is smoke coming out of the stack!
@Mark V. Spadaro posted:Is the bump in the water to the left of the guy standing another guy’s head?
Hard to say, could be a fence post. If you enlarge the pic, the engineer is in the cab leaning out the window.
Steve
@cbojanower posted:I just found these notes from the Oklahoma RR Museum that goes with the photo
BW photo, Frisco (SLSF) steam engine #595, 4-6-0 Mogul. Bulit
by Dickson 1902.Still wonder what it was doing in the water for the photo
Last sentence, good question. Who’s taking the pic? Are they in a boat? High ground? A pretty steady pic if in a boat.
Steve
Usual RR procedure is NOT to traverse water 2" above the rail. Being that this train is apparently moving (seems to be a low bow wave in the left/center front of the pic), it a certainty that all the bearings on this train and engine/tender are soon to be shot.
@452 Card posted:Usual RR procedure is NOT to traverse water 2" above the rail.
I believe you will find that that is a diesel era policy. Steam locomotives are able to travis much deeper water.
Being that this train is apparently moving (seems to be a low bow wave in the left/center front of the pic), it a certainty that all the bearings on this train and engine/tender are soon to be shot.
Probably not "shot", but the oil and grease lubricants would certainly require lots of attention.
Hi from Michigan: The photo you posted is now showing up with “Google Lens”. Billions of images were search in 1.11 seconds. The searched also posted similar photos but none are close to your photo. This photo has never been posted by any source on the internet. This could be a fake photo done with Photoshop or back in the day it was shot by an unknown person.
I have a home darkroom & when I go to antique stores I buy boxes of old negatives. I find a lot of interesting images.
Hope this helps. Gary 🚂
Appears Gallinipper Creek flows into the Osage River near Osceola MO, per Google Maps. A quick look doesn't show any current rail lines, so whatever line the picture shows may be long gone.
1927 was a major year for flooding across the middle South.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGs2iLoDUYE
Here in the Twin Cities there was major flooding in 1952, particularly affecting trains getting in and out of St. Paul Union Depot, which is right on the Mississippi. Several streamlined trains, like the Rock Island Rocket, had to be pulled by steam engines instead of diesels, since the diesel's motors shorted out in the water but as long as the water didn't reach the fireboxes, the steam engines could still run.
If you click on the link below and scroll down to the top of page 11, it appears this picture of Frisco (SL-SF) 595, a 4-6-0, could be the locomotive in the OP's photo....
@Rich Melvin posted:The water is very close to the level of the grates. Hard to tell whether it drowned the fire or not.
Thankfully the water is high enough to cover those hideous driver counterweights.
Hi from Michigan: “This is a fake photo” If this was a real photo some historical society in Missouri or news organization would have used this photo. Before Photoshop, images we’re manipulated using darkroom procedures. (1) Two negatives would be exposed on to a sheet of photographic paper. (2) During the exposure, Dodging & burning steps would be used to have the locomotive appear to be in this flood. (3) A negative with the locomotive and a negative with the lake would be exposed on the photographic paper with different exposure times. (4) A new negative would be produced to have this all one on one negative, using a copy stand. To make a new negative.
Below is a closeup where both negatives are merging into one. Notice how the water is not splashing up onto the locomotive and no ripples in the water. In my opinion this is a fake photo.
Gary: Hope to see you out rail-fanning. 🚂
@trainroomgary I think that's a solid analysis as long as the locomotive wasn't parked. I actually didn't know film photos were edited in the dark room though! I got to use a dark room once and it was the coolest thing. The method you describe is interesting.
But @cbojanower did say this was discovered in some family items his neighbor had. Makes you wonder if someone in that family was an avid photographer with a great sense of humor haha
@trainroomgary posted:Hi from Michigan: “This is a fake photo” If this was a real photo some historical society in Missouri or news organization would have used this photo. Before Photoshop, images we’re manipulated using darkroom procedures. . In my opinion this is a fake photo.
Seems like an awfully elaborate fake. Aging the paper, scribbling a (fake)date and info on the back. Just to hand off to a neighbor.
While not verification of this particular loco. Steam locomotives in high water was not totally uncommon as discussed in this older thread, with similar images :
@RickO posted:Seems like an awfully elaborate fake. Aging the paper, scribbling a (fake)date and info on the back. Just to hand off to a neighbor.
Hi Rick: This photo was faked in a home darkroom or professional darkroom, back in the twenties. The aging of the photo paper took place after the faking process. If this was real more than one photographer would have taken a picture of a locomotive in a flood with the train crew on the locomotive. I have searched over a billion photos with “Google Lens” there are no similar photos. This is a fake.
Gary: Hope to see you out rail-fanning. 🚂
@trainroomgary posted:If this was real more than one photographer would have taken a picture of a locomotive in a flood with the train crew on the locomotive. I have searched over a billion photos with “Google Lens” there are no similar photos. This is a fake.
If you are looking for examples of steam locomotives traversing flood waters, check out this thread from a few years back:
https://ogrforum.com/...-trains-in-the-water
There are some pictures of them in motion, some stationary, and only one that is a photoshopped image.
@WindupGuy posted:There are some pictures of them in motion, some stationary, and only one that is a photoshopped image.
Well, in one person's opinion it's a fake. 
Remember, camera weren't in every pocket back in those days.
GunRunnerJohn - just to be clear, I was referring to the picture of the Cass shay in the other thread - it's an obvious photoshop job. 
April 1927 Missouri Newspapers
Well, at least they got the date and location correct.
@trainroomgary posted:I have searched over a billion photos with “Google Lens” there are no similar photos. This is a fake.
Not every single photograph ever taken in the history of photography has been digitally scanned and uploaded to the Internet.
I have thousands of photos that you will not find using "Google Lens."
Just sayin.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK6I9SbwSlw
Gary: Hope to see you out rail-fanning. 🚂
I'm not that sure it's a fake photo.
First, there appears to be a "bow wave", ripples at the front trailing off to the side. The train is probably moving but dead slow due to the possibility of hitting a section of washed out track, so there's only a minimal disturbance of the water.
Second, note that the engine's reflection is visible in the water. If someone just took a picture of a train and a picture of some water in 1927 and spliced the negatives together, I don't know how they'd get the reflection in there.
Given that we know the creek/river intersection was flooded in 1927, and that the railroad shown (SL-SF) did serve the area, it would seem more likely it's a real pic.
p.s. Note that the water goes all the way back to the treeline, look behind the man on the front of the engine.
And of course, crewmen riding on the front uncoupler bar happened ALL THE TIME! Or was he photoshopped in too?
OK, one more time:
IF the photo is real, there are a few facts pointed out here to support that. The shadow, the apparent low bow wake and the historic flood connection. A prudent crew would have moved through the area slowly due to the height of the water, to keep the fire from being extinguished. The smoke from the stack seems to be moving back very slowly, but if the photo is faked this could just be a pic of an engine and its crew matched to the water scene. Also, I believe the person perched on the pilot is there to observe the track underwater to prevent any mishaps (if the photo is real). The odd thing about that is he is on the fireman's side. If he needed to stop the train with a hand signal, he is out of view of the engineer (or, the fireman is in the cab on his side and will relay any signals verbally).
Just let me say that I was a locomotive engineer for 31 years. I have no steam experience, so my observations are simply from what I was trained to do. Its strange that this would have occurred at all unless the crew was authorized to operate in these conditions. And I will say again, if its real, the packing in the bearing boxes being saturated with water will fail and the bearings would all be destroyed.
Jus sayin.
As a former professional Combat photographer, You'd be surprised what results can be achieved with double, triple and quadruple exposures. If you magnify the water on the right and to the rear of the loco it does not match the water in the rest of the photo. Additionally, the water line up to the tracks is very still. Again not matching up. The shadow in front looks awkward as well. AT 400 times magnification, you can see these imperfections. Can we say for sure it is fake' But there is plausible suspicions... 📸
Wow Gary you sure have a lot to say about something you have very little info about. First, NO KIDDING you didn't find this image on Google images, because as I said in the first post, it came from a neighbor. He has a big box of family photos, this was in them. I doubt it has seen much outside his own family. In fact if it was a fake, odds are it would have been published more. There are all sorts of web pages full of faked images back from the early days of photography
Two, what can be done rather easily today in Photoshop, was a real PITA in the darkroom. I have done a lot of merged photos back in the film days (Bachelors Art/Photo 1989). Most faked images became postcards or travel photos back them. Once again, I doubt the photographer would go through the hassle of only doing one.
Third, The image is the typical size of images that were contact printed from the film of the day. I don't think 620 was around quite yet, but I would say it's a Kodak print from a box camera
The image I scanned is small and the aging is not faked It was aged about as much as you would expect for a 90 year old photo.
You remind me a lot of all the naysayers we had a few years ago when someone posted a photo of Mike Wolff and the President of Lionel posing next to a baby stroller (his child or grandchild) at York. People over analyzed that photos for weeks. It was really quiet a hilarious site to see everyone trying to explain why they thought that photo was fake (It wasn't). Maybe you should go find that one for us
The photo is certainly based on reality:
1) Osage River and Galinipper place the incident near the city of Osceola as @wjstix pointed out.
2) The engine was identified as Frisco #595
3) A map of the Frisco tracks show it passing through Osceola
4) The Lowry City Independent, 14 April 1927 (Thursday), describes the following:
5) So on Monday April 11 1927, the date on the back of the picture, we know for sure that the water over the tracks was 51"
6) An article in the April 1959 edition of The Railway and Locomotive Historical Society Bulletin stated Mogul wheels were 44" in diameter.
7) Even if the picture was a fake, one can readily conclude from the article that on Sunday April 10 and Tuesday April 12, engine wheels were running through water levels above the track.
At least, Chris' original request was fulfilled by this thread: The locomotive and the location were identified.
@cbojanower posted:Wow Gary you sure have a lot to say about something you have very little info about.
Whaddya mean, he has little info? He has Google Lens! A neat little tool he discovered that he thinks proves the reality or falsity of all on-line images! Clearly you didn't look at the photo he posted with green arrows pointing out absolutely nothing.
Next he'll be analyzing the moon landing photos and telling us it was all fake.
I think it's a cool photo. I love that the location and and locomotive were identified.
I personally don't see a bow wake but I do see a little drift from the stack. If that gets any deeper it will snuff the fire out and you will only have whatever steam the heat in the boiler can muster to get to someplace drier. The bearing boxes on every piece of equipment in the train will need to be cleaned out and have new waste and oil put in, but that's not too far outside the realm of normal maintenance in this era anyway. I suspect that the first car may be a ice-reefer, so getting the cars out of the flood area before the contents spoiled would be a reason to risk sending the train through a flooded area.
I have no idea why a photo in a box a family photos would be so suspected to be fake. As to the man standing on the front beam, I assume that's a conductor or brakeman. The fireman would still be in the cab. The gentleman in the photo would may have gotten to that location by climbing out the cab to the running board. Assuming the cab even has doors on both sides, it's much easier to get forward from the fireman's side without having to climb past the engineer's controls, particularly for a man of significant girth, such as this individual. Once he made it forward he may simply not have been comfortable switching to the engineer's side. Or, as long as we are totally guessing, that protrusion in the water behind him may him the top of a switch stand and maybe he was peering through the water to see the alignment- at this point I am just making plausible stuff up. And as @smd4 noted, with the water covering those hideous drivers, this may be the best picture that was ever taken of that locomotive!
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