Help me design an attic layout

Asymair95 posted:

I have an issue with an E Unit tripping into neutral when it crosses a switch. The offending switch is in the foreground of this pic.

 

This happens when using one of my Alco engines, but only on this switch, none of the others, and not all the time, maybe 50/50 it will pass with no issues.

In other news, I won an auction for a 282 Gantry crane!...yay me. Now I have to find a spot for it...lol.

Is the Alco a one roller (collector) engine?

it is behaving like the throttle is zeroed - check the center rails for voltage and the isolation pins for the non-derail are on the proper rails - a loss of power or common is causing a momentary power loss to the engine.

If you are not sure of which rails should have the isolation pins - give me the switch number and I'll give you a diagram

Asymair95 posted:

I found a pic online of the level of scenery I would like to try and accomplish.

 

You can see he has not ballasted, but has used the cork roadbed to mimic the look of ballast.

I also like his use of ground cover and shrubs. He has a lot more roadway than I have planned at the moment, so I may have to rethink that.

yes, this is a good look.

My preference is a base color in the brown shades matching the dirt in your area and less grass. Look at most grassy areas- when you get up close one can see plenty of earth - only manicured lawns and golf courses and such are dense grass - from a distance it all looks green. The earth typically isn't a consistent color everywhere in an area. I think the grass is too dense in the photo. Paint is cheaper than grass and glue. (Elmer's white - diluted with distilled water to avoid coloration)

Then, well placed shrub material really finishes the job.

That is why I suggested mixing some lighter brown with the green paint that you have. Sort of like camouflage blotching. 

These are 1121 switches, I don’t have any fiber pins in them, not this one anyway. 

The Alco is a two collector roller type engine. It traverses the other 5 switches on this line with no problems, which is why I was thinking it might be the switch.

I will get out the ohm meter and check continuity of the switch rails to the track and report back.

Asymair95 posted:

I have an issue with an E Unit tripping into neutral when it crosses a switch. The offending switch is in the foreground of this pic.

This happens when using one of my Alco engines, but only on this switch, none of the others, and not all the time, maybe 50/50 it will pass with no issues.

In other news, I won an auction for a 282 Gantry crane!...yay me. Now I have to find a spot for it...lol.

Could be the e unit needs some cleaning.

I don't recall if I sent this to you - The Lionel 1954 Operator's manual. Page 28 has the 1122 switches. Insulating pins are needed for the control rails. That should resolve the issue.

After checking the continuity on the switch and finding it good, I dug out another Alco (Erie) to see if the problem still occurred, and it did not.

Looks like I have an e unit problem on the Rock Island. Will have to look into it. I swear I just cleaned that e unit last Christmas before putting it away. 

Spent a few hours painting tonight, looks better already.

It must be too sensitive for the brief power change that may occur at that point on the track. The isolation pins are necessary to prevent weird issues with the control rails and main track power and switch power. 

I worked about 21 of those 1122's and I still am not friends with them.

I will try cleaning the wheels and rollers first and see what happens.

Painting and more painting. 

It is kind of an olive drab color in flat paint.

Looks fantastic - the paint really transforms the layout. I like the color choice. 

  It's most likely a poor connection along the switch's ciruits going to one of the rails; rivet, pivot, & tabs. You can try cross burnishing the rails, especially if they retain a dark tone. 

Look for the possibility of the roller shorting out on the switch rail and points. If the switch boarders a block you may need to add a 3/4" piece of electrical tape to stop an O gauge engine from shorting the rollers on 0-27 turnouts. (I need it on one sw. myself for two engines,1 pw steam, 1 pw diesel switcher.

I like to hit the tab areas with a drop of gun oil, waiting 15min to see if it needs flushing.... Try resetting soldering and/or crimping tabs & rivets.

The eunit dropping out at one spot wouldn't point to the eunit for any reason I can think of. I think it would show on grades if it were contact fingers flexing from draw & heat.

   I could see power drop dropping it out from the intial draw of anti derail coil, especially if there were poor connections in or around the turnout. (even if its fired on its own power supply if the common is saturated...).  If they are seperately powered coils, try it on dead switches. If it stops, look at improving common connections.

  Is there a power feed to all three legs of the turnout?

It appears it is just a problem with this one Alco for some reason. My other Alco engines don’t have a problem with this switch. 

I will scrub the wheels and rollers with a green 3m pad to remove grease and gunk, and also go over the rails in the area of the offending switch. 

I have the switch wired to a separate accy transformer at 14v just to move the switch. Track power flows through the switch connection pins, and through either soldered wires, or a metal buss bar beneath the switch.

 

I have attached the AnyRail file of my attic layout.

I understand that our spaces are greatly different, but I though perhaps the small loop and the narrow part against the wall might

be of some design help.  The AnyRail format is attached separately at the bottom in case you get a AnyRail Reader.

 

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read the last paragraph on page 1 - if it is an older 1122 the swivel rail can rock and cause a momentary short. That would kick the E-unit into neutral.

Check the swivel rail for tightness.

 

By the way, I like the shade of green that you used. I didn't know what to expect. It looks earthen enough. Imagine a little brown dabbled in when wet.

That’s a beautiful layout sir. Love the scenery. Is there a tutorial video or book you learned from?...or just trial and error?

These are 1121 switches, there is no auto derailment function. You can make them into one by using lockons and insulated rails, but I didn’t do that. I did check the swivel rail for connection issues by wiggling it by hand with the engine on there, and by a continuity check with the meter.

Asymair95 posted:

These are 1121 switches, there is no auto derailment function. You can make them into one by using lockons and insulated rails, but I didn’t do that. I did check the swivel rail for connection issues by wiggling it by hand with the engine on there, and by a continuity check with the meter.

Ok, still the same - a loose pivot rail or insulating washer can cause a short. Also, the controller causes a momentary short to the controller lamp when moving a lever. Also check if the engine roller is touching the center and pivot rail when it passes that point. 

Service info

Add find an 1122 to the shopping list to replace this.

Thanks so much for any comments related to the Crocodile Trains Store layout.  

I had visited a wonderful layout owned by Gary Patterson of the Flower City Tinplate Trackers, a club to which I belong.

His dramatic western toned scenes inspired me to want something of that nature but in a more green tone.  

The mastermind of my layout beyond initial conception and wish list is a master builder named Al Judy whom without his help my railroad would not exist in it's present form.  I have asked Al about how he came by his knowledge and he said it was basically the 30 to 50  years of building layouts professionally that allowed my layout to be built by 3 of us at this level of detail in 30 working days.  My credit was to truly understand my own limitations from having built numerous amateur level layouts and having the wisdom to tear down my existing USA layout which was a 12x25 map of the USA with numerous trains running around it on 3 levels, and start over from scratch.  I spent a year planning the new layout and once we had a plan in place, tore down the old and started the built the new one about this time last year.  I was adamant about wanting lots of yellow on the layout, and a company from California whose name I forget but can locate,  along with tress made by Bill Stroup from PA and and JTT trees, and numerous Woodland Scenics products, are what went into the final result.

I documented the build and here is a link to pictures of our efforts.  I think there is something that might be gained from the pictures as far as construction techniques. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/r2F5QXjtTuZRo2qb7

With all of the responses I have lost track of where you are in you attic layout planning, but please let me know if I can help in any way.

Mike

Painting is coming to an end soon. I am waiting on my log loader to come before I paint the left side, then things will progress a little quicker. 

Lionel suggested a power lock on on each leg of a turnout (3) rather than pass power through them. Pin connections feed the short turnout rails better than the internals. I think turnout rails are thinner steel too, hard to say (Less reinforced than most lionel rail webbing/footing at the least) I bus around mine. A drop out without coil action is power loss from a short or loss of connection, likely the center rail since you don't have pins, therefore likely a better common connection. I didn't love the dark tab look and corrosion on the triangle trace. Bad connections...to acting like a diode...dark metal worries me I think it's possible, if too narrowly gauged, the back of some wheels could be brushing the pivot too. Tape can stop it. (Maybe thick enamel) I had a bunch of posts fail and forget what made it, lol.. lets see....roller spacing can be a bad match Really rolling it thru by hand as needed to recreate the drop and guessing what to try based on exact roller postion is what I'd try. Small bits of electrical tape here and there on the suspect areas may be needed to stop a shorting roller or wheel. (It lasts longer than you would expect too, even if it diagnostics vs the end solution.

Lionel suggested a power lock on on each leg of a turnout (3) rather than pass power through them. Pin connections feed the short turnout rails better than the internals. I think turnout rails are thinner steel too, hard to say (Less reinforced than most lionel rail webbing/footing at the least) I bus around mine. A drop out without coil action is power loss from a short or loss of connection, likely the center rail since you don't have pins, therefore likely a better common connection. I didn't love the dark tab look and corrosion on the triangle trace. Bad connections...to acting like a diode...dark metal worries me I think it's possible, if too narrowly gauged, the back of some wheels could be brushing the pivot too. Tape can stop it. (Maybe thick enamel) I had a bunch of posts fail and forget what made it, lol.. lets see....roller spacing can be a bad match Really rolling it thru by hand as needed to recreate the drop and guessing what to try based on exact roller postion is what I'd try. Small bits of electrical tape here and there on the suspect areas may be needed to stop a shorting roller or wheel. (It lasts longer than you would expect too, even if it diagnostics vs the end solution.)

Asymair95 posted:

Painting is coming to an end soon. I am waiting on my log loader to come before I paint the left side, then things will progress a little quicker. 

 

This is looking really good. You have a good eye. Are there any family members living that would remember the old layouts like you do? Your efforts would probably bring tears to their eyes and fond memories.

I have an aunt in her mid-eighties whose husband put up a classic '50's style layout every Christmas. Even though my layout is modern, the trains for Christmas stirred some fond memories for her. The bad news that she gave all of the stuff to another relative that has never set it up in over 20 years.

Will try the hand rolling through the switch to see if the roller is shorting. That may have to wait till next Winter though. I only have about two and a half, or three months of work left up here before the weather changes and I need to move on to Spring/Summer priorities.  Going to try and get all the accessories wired and running, track secured, tunnel built, lighting in and wired, etc. Next Winter will be the heavy scenery work.

Moonman,

My Dad is still around and lives close. He has seen my progress, but not since painting. I’m sure he will like it.

I am going to start building some train display shelving soon. I have some plywood already from another project, and a few 1x4 pine boards. Was thinking of just building a box, laying the plywood inside, and adding cross shelves about 5” apart. Add some paint...and viola.

Received another goodie box in the mail, but it doesn’t work. The transformer grounds out as soon as power is applied. Have a short somplace.

Going to have a milk platform on the o27 line, and the o31 line...if I can get this car fixed anyway.

Good news...milk car is fixed and working again! Will install the platform and 6019 track tomorrow.

Got a few things done tonight.

Had to change the track and roadbed a bit to fit the 164 log loader between them. Fits good and operates well, and there is still room for the ice loader, and lumber mill.

This log loader is in amazing shape. I can’t tell if it is an original, or just a very well done restoration. In either case, it works well and will be a working piece on my railroad.

Put in the end wall where the tunnel will be. 

Tomorrow night I hope to finish the painting.

I love this attic layout.  There are lots of great operational possibilities and I like the side aisles., and multi-levels.  I see lots of great accessory options creating a fantastic classic layout.  Bravo!

 

Mike

Thank you Mike. 

Congratulations for beginning your grand adventure.  First, a suggestion ... take lots of pix along the way and make photo albums to capture the magic moments. Include your kids in the shots. Years from now, those images will be the basis for recall of great memories. 

Gleanings from my layout experience ...
My home L-shaped layout is located in an at-the-rear addition to our house. That space was previously the home office of the former home owner - a draftsman. The width of the room established the size limit for the layout. I wanted walk-around aisles for access to the platforms from all sides although the Goddess of Geometry (in collusion with Jenny Craig) advised otherwise. With 20/20 hindsight, they were both right. The perimeter aisles are only 20 inches wide -- a great incentive for me to mind my midriff!  

The platforms are 36-inch wide hollow-core doors with add-on pieces spliced onto them to make 46-inch wide platforms which I subsequently covered with green patio carpeting.  That platform width would accommodate O42-inch curves and switches. I used small C-clamps to bind the platforms together - no bolts or screws - and to facilitate taking it apart someday. The platforms are supported by SKIL plastic and HOME DEPOT metal sawhorses held in position with quarter-round molding as guides glued and screwed to the undersides. Stout, and firmly in place.

The "Lionel Orange" painted wood fascia boards hold all accessory control buttons - convenient for young operators. The under-platform wiring is dressed in place by nylon cable clips to avoid the look of "an explosion in a spaghetti factory." However, as track wiring, accessories, lighted buildings, and other goodies appeared later on, the wiring tended to get messy despite using many terminal strips and some wiring blocks. At the outset, I should have installed wire raceways to group associated wires together and applied wire numbers.

I used ANYRAIL Track Planning Software to create the track plan. It was quickly apparent that the base platform would not contain all the buildings I wanted to display, so I added an upper level to accommodate 35 Dept 56 lighted porcelain NORTH POLE VILLAGE buildings and three DC-only trolley lines with bump-and-go holiday-theme trolleys.

I designed the layout to be a "slightly grown-up version" of the plywood and track "Plain Jane" my dad built for me in the mid-1950s in the basement of our house.  Accordingly, I didn't intend to add gee whiz scenic effects to this 21st century layout -- sculpted mountains and tunnels, fields and streams, rocky waterfalls, suburban streets and lawns, etc. Pre-built buildings, people figures, 1950s automobiles, and operating accessories resting on green patio carpeting are enough for me; which is a polite way for me to confess I'm "scenery challenged." 

Layout photos and track layout diagrams attached.

Carry on.  Make Joshua Lionel Cowan proud.

Mike Mottler
mottlerm@gmail.com

Took a breather from the layout to build a nice set of display shelves. Total cost was about $60. Dimensions of the cabinet 30” x 80”. Each shelf should hold three to four cars or a couple of engines.

On a different topic, I’m thinking of adding a 497 coaling station to the layout. I believe I have room if I juggle things around a little bit. My plan is to make a small mining area and use the 497 for loading gravel. 

You guys that have 497’s do you like them?

Got some more painting done on the layout, almost done now.  Just some small touch up left to do. 

Also got the mountain pass carved and painted.

Next I guess I need to screw down the track. I’m still undecided on the 497, decisions, decisions.

I don't over do it with screws. The curves get pushed by the engines, so perhaps one per track. The straights, where you feel it or none except on the adjoining track to the switches to pin those down and NONE in the switches.

Just snug the track screws. You are not fastening lumber together. 

The rock piece turned out well. 

You have accomplished a lot in a short time. Almost at the fun part - Bringing the layout alive with details, buildings and such. Oh and trains.

I agree with pinning to foam. I removed the majority that went into the wood and used shorter ones to pin mine to the foam only. Each screw into the wood increases the noise transmitted into the wood, which then becomes amplified off the bottom of the layout, echoing in between the underside, floor, and wall. Why no fasters in the switches?

O31 loop of track is screwed down. I only screwed into the cork roadbed and maybe a 1/4” of the foam board. I put more screws in since it was only going into the roadbed and not wood. Took a test run and she runs a bit smoother as I think the pin connections are tighter now. Noise level is still the same, no change there. 

I got the shelving units installed. Look and function great, can’t wait to get the fleet on display.

Think I’m going to pass on the coaling station. There’s just not much room left, and it really doesn’t fit the logging theme of the layout. Plus, the Commander has been calling me on the carpet about train room expenditures. Need to cool it for awhile.

Adriatic posted:

I agree with pinning to foam. I removed the majority that went into the wood and used shorter ones to pin mine to the foam only. Each screw into the wood increases the noise transmitted into the wood, which then becomes amplified off the bottom of the layout, echoing in between the underside, floor, and wall. Why no fasters in the switches?

The screw story about frequency transmission is bogus. While one could perhaps theoretically prove that there is some transmission, it is not a major factor of a noisy train layout. I love how everyone cherishes the myth. Use 3/4 ply and cork roadbed - quiet. 

Why fasteners in the switch when three tracks adjacent are screwed down at the tie. Screwing the switch down can cause deformation or stress on the base and reduce the operational smoothness. 

I have found that to be true with my 1121 switches. They are very flimsy and any flexing/distortion of the base tends to bind the swivel rail. I don’t have any experience with o22 switches, but they seem quite robust.

  Sorry, it's not a myth to me, but a trial and error experience.

  And to continue on such a steadfast path is basically calling me a liar Moonman, not to mention the science behind it all, at least to some degree. 

  Maybe our circumstances have not been the same?

   Maybe our hearing ranges differ?

  Maybe the early morning words were just poorly chosen; but it comes across as accusational more than opinonated. A myth implies a lie. (Maybe I didn't claim it as experience well enough?)

   I have Aspergers and couldn't write ANY fiction until I was a teen, and I still have trouble with it. I was nearly held back in school bacause of it, despite having an IQ the Feds wanted tested for think tank schooing (really I learned to plager groups of other stories and recombine them well enough to please/fool the teachers)    I often tick folks off a lot because I don't think to lie, or do it so poorly I that I greatly offend them. I make acquaintances easy, but keeping friends can be hard, mostly because of lack of NT "filters" when I talk.

I would sugest the O.P. try without and then with a few, or in two similarly constructed areas to decide what works best for themselves.

   I can recall the difference when we added them to GG track in 76, and since then I had let someone else convince me there was no big difference.      As time washed my sureness of my first experience away, all was fine and I screwed every piece down.  But the first time I pulled the screws off my present layout  to add a siding and the noise was not as prevelent.... I could suddenly hear the tv in the next room. All screws except the corners came out. With no load, or a dozen cars, the engine being on the curves over the screws is when it is loudest UNDER the table.  The sound makes it out of there no problem.  

  I suppose there is a chance at some natural sound cancelation when top sound meets bottom, but more likely is they combine to be fuller and louder. 

 Other noise to be added is reflective off the top. The more soft ground cover you use the quieter it is coming from the top too as this absorbs vs reflects.  I noticed that when I first used fleece in the center for temp ground cover. I didn't really want to remove it but did as sparks near fleece really scared me.  Later, I found a green fleece that was kind of hard to burn. That went on my tiny Christmas loop in my room. (at 30 inches square with 3/4" solid wood top, it does not have any drumming issues from screws like the big ones.

  I'd guess up to 8db difference with everything going.  Measuring active and ambient sound levels was part of my employment for two jobs and helping build two sound studios.  I also built car audio for friends hitting up to 104db.   At one job once a week things had to be measured and recorded. Another it was near daily db checks of PA systems and area static ambiances.  I got pretty good at winging numerical estimation between 60-80db. Louder or quieter is pretty easy with a comparison sound like a tv, esecially when you've done it to feed yourself 

   I can also hear 19khz pretty well which always amazes doctors when I get hearing tests. I've taken to warning them the equipment is likely fine before we begin.  I do have some trouble with soft low frequency voices, but never tried to pinpoint the frequency, it's pretty deep though. 

  Maybe it is the thickness of your tabletops? Maybe you are taller and underlayout noise doesn't affect as much? Maybe you have had better skirting preventing you from noticing?

   I also recall lots of folks saying there is no difference between Fastrack and tubular, etc..   Some folk can't hear it, but there is a difference.  It seems it may be more of a frequency difference than total volume change (Thats the test I'd really like my equipment back for)

  On screwing down turnouts, mine are midway along my straights, I corraled those turnouts and leave the straights bare, so I guess it's just a different means to the same end. An advantage is I can pull one turnout screw and remove it easily on my table layout.. but on the ceiling, the turnouts actually are too close to edge and I used the track to hold the turnout. Disadvantage is covering the screw heads with lichen. The yard lead has one screw, two turnouts & track floats free... oh, the stubs have one under the bumpers...3 total.  I was just curious if there was a reason I hadn't considered. 

The 022 switches are stable and don’t really flex, however issues can arise from screwing then down too tightly. You can inadvertently create a short circuit by squeezing the metal bottom plate (which is grounded through the outside rails) enough to where it touches the connecting strip of the hot center rails. 

Some 022 switches have a card stock like material as insulator. I’m not sure if the card stock was factory or an aftermarket addition. 

I just remember being advised to let the switches ‘float’, no nails for HO.  So I have the same philosophy for O Gauge.

Bit more progress.

Received my new to me 282 Gantry crane in the mail today.  Needs new wiring, but everything else looks to be in great shape. Wasted no time installing it in its new home.

Got all the track in the town area screwed down tonight. Used a bit more screws because of all the twisty turns. Also added some road striping .

Tomorrow I will screw down the last of the o27 track on the mainline, which means all track will be secure at that point...yay.

Had a fun night with the kids unpacking the trains out of their tissue paper and boxes and setting them up on the display shelf. My four year old and I unpacked, and my eight year old set them out on the shelves the way he wanted. Was lots of fun looking and playing with Great Grandpas trains. My four year old was beside himself with excitement...so much so, that we had a hard time getting him calmed down for bed.

Been busy wiring for the last few nights. Have made steady progress.

Log loader and lumber mill wired and working flawlessly. My four year asked if the logs are really being cut inside the mill...of course I said, yes...lol.

Log loader and milk car platform wired up and running. The platform may still move somewhere else, not sure yet. 450 signal is tonight’s project. Going to put the red and green lights on their own push button switches for the kids to play with. Off in the corner you can see the painted and weathered mountain pass installed.

I wired these two crossing signals and the gate on one insulated track section. They all work great, although there is no flasher on the signals. Checked out some threads on here and it seems like drama to get them to do that. Maybe some point down the road. I also started placing interior lighting for the buildings out on their respective home sites.  I also moved the ice station to this side of the layout to reduce congestion on the other side. It is wired up and working great.

Last night saw the last of the track screwed down, everything is secured now.