Help Please? Issue with K-Line GG-1

clean clean clean those wheels. I have several Kline locomotives and they do the same thing if the wheels

are NOT cleaned.

Popi posted:

clean clean clean those wheels. I have several Kline locomotives and they do the same thing if the wheels

are NOT cleaned.

That was the first thing I did, weren't all that dirty to begin with.

Hmmm. A cold solder joint or plug connection seems possible. Bad, weak roller wire, dirty roller INSIDE the axle hole, etc.  

Are the lights dropping out? Id think it was a pre board wire issue if so.

Check it, top off, see how hot the motor(s) get. (Careful, or you might be sucking on a finger while headed for the burn cream )

Check powed, in Neu., and see if you can help it drop out by wiggling motor tabs, plugs to board, etc.

If I couldn't find a physical reason, I'd reflow ever solder joint to the board. Maybe on the board if it isnt too full of micro components (faster and easier than it sounds... and I just hate micro because it is so small, really the same deal. I never looked at mine to know)

After that, I'd look to the triac/transistors that do the switching (follow motor leads traces to likely (two?) sub-circuits, likely one for each direction.)

Adriatic posted:

Hmmm. A cold solder joint or plug connection seems possible. Bad, weak roller wire, dirty roller INSIDE the axle hole, etc.  

Are the lights dropping out? Id think it was a pre board wire issue if so.

Check it, top off, see how hot the motor(s) get. (Careful, or you might be sucking on a finger while headed for the burn cream )

Check powed, in Neu., and see if you can help it drop out by wiggling motor tabs, plugs to board, etc.

If I couldn't find a physical reason, I'd reflow ever solder joint to the board. Maybe on the board if it isnt too full of micro components (faster and easier than it sounds... and I just hate micro because it is so small, really the same deal. I never looked at mine to know)

After that, I'd look to the triac/transistors that do the switching (follow motor leads traces to likely (two?) sub-circuits, likely one for each direction.)

Hi Adriatic

Thank you for the great ideas.

I seem to think the issue is before the board as well because I would think that if the issue was board level it wouldn't run in general or the sudden stopping would be more consistent in time duration.

I'll see if I can figure out how to take the trucks apart. I did have the top off of it last night and cleaned up what I could see. The trucks seem like one large piece of metal, will take a better look at them tonight. I would image there has to be some sort of brass spring metal that rides on the wheel axle for the common, if so I would like to be able to get to that to make sure there is proper contact and not crud buildup.

The lights are dropping out when the unit suddenly stops but both directional lighting is fine when the train is running, seems normal to me.

Board looks like its the "old style" components, easy to see and through board, not surface mount, (nor multilayered pcb) so I have no issue soldering on board if need be.

Cheers

Marc

Adriatic posted some real good things to check, the only thing I’ll add is if your handy with a descent volt meter, and you have one with a continuity tester, test continuity between roller pick ups......if you have one roller cold, should be easy to trace....Pat

  Ok, I got beat to continuity checks ().

  I don't think you'll find a common wiper, but it wont hurt to check the worm grease while you are this deep. They really don't differ much visually from post war GG-1s or Williams so I think the bushings and frame do a good enough job at power delivery. I've only seen loco wheel/axle wipers for common on 2r and other gauges. Cars are another story. I think they only have them because of delrin bearings. 

If the board draws com. from the chassis and there is no truck to chassis wire, see if you can add one. If the board draws common from trucks I doubt there is an issue there and  I'd suspect the roller wire. Andwwe missed clean the roller and center rail. My center collects more crap than outers and wheels...used to be the other way around on the floor. (Not looks clean, clean them. And though I've never had issue on cruddy track, Popi is seldom off base, clean the wheels and track again..for him. If he lived within an hour, he'd likely show up and do it for you )

When you oil axles, are you getting black drips? If so you should flush them till it runs clean. Black is metal and/or dirt. (flush with multiple oilings. or WD-40, crc electric cleaner, etc.. then when dry, re-oil.)

Do you have a (kinda big) DC power supply or bridge rectifier you could use? Bypassing the board with dc could eliminate or confirm that board as the issue (a 9v bat. might work..just not long. Is the Bug 6volt?   I've run trains in my Kombi off it's bat., lol )

(And because of 1st snow on the ground and your timing, I'm thinking about my first Bug never getting stuck for more than 10min. It would have to run up a pile and get stuck ON the snow, 4wheels inithe air. There, hot engine air would blow-melt the snow at the rear allowing me to back up and plow past with some extra speed I also drove the buggies in it and on lake ice when I could  )

Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to look at this last night but hopefully tonight.

Pat, thanks for the additional idea, I have a good meter.

Adriatic, I did grease the worm gears while I was in there originally, figured it didn't hurt and they looked dry.

Cleaned both rollers the other day, (and wheels) as well as well as portions of both common and center rail where I could reach. I dont think its this because all my other engines are running ok but did it anyway "for fun". I'll check the roller and truck wires for continuity, maybe as suggested before its a cold or bad solder joint.

Will try the flushing of axle/truck mating surfaces.

No rectifier but I do have a fairly large function generator, hope it doesn't come to that but could unbury it from the shop if all else fails.

lol 6V bug! Mine is 12V but still made in Wolfsburg! Unfortunately the bug is a huge project and not out on the road yet. Have completed all restoration underneath, new firewall, headframe, pans, heater channels etc etc, even had to take the cabin off, that was fun! Now I want to rebuild the engine and need to do body work before putting it back to its original color, orange. They said these were "cheap" cars to fix and maintain, guess that only applies if you don't have to replace everything and try to put it back to original as closely as possible. That being said, I did swap out the braking for a safer 4 wheel disk brake system, after I had already bought complete new drum system.......... 

Again, thank you for all the help and suggestions, will report back on progress so if someone else runs into the same issue they can hopefully find it using the board search feature, (and yes, I did search before posting my question).

Cheers

Marc

Lol, a bridge rectifer. It's a small cheap universal electronic part that changes AC power to DC. Under $5 to you I'd estimate. (about 3/4"sq....or smaller) Basically 4 diodes in 1 package. 

Proportionally, parts aren't as cheap as they used to be when millions were on the road. Designed for most repairs to be done by one man alone with simple tools. Strict mantainance scheduals was the biggest obstacle to even greater sales imo. 

  A lot like a model train, lots of fresh oil often and a peak at the brushes (or rocker arms) every other time you oil it and it will go go go

took apart trucks, cleaned wheels and rollers, (again) and axles, very little black crud came out/off surprisingly, checked wires on trucks, lubed up worm gears, continuity between rollers is good. 

If this was a bad or cold solder joint, wouldn't just one motor shut down and not both? Its acting like its loosing the hot, (or common) but I cannot see it loosing power from both rollers at the same time........will check where power goes to board next, then out to motors.

Yes, know what a bridge rectifier does, just dont have 4 diodes handy, will borrow some from work on Monday.

Ok, two motors. Two plugs? In series maybe? 

Also, do the lights drop out? or are they wired to the roller vs the board? That puts the issue before the motors. 

Try unplugging each motor one at a time.  Any change in lights now?

If in series shunt the leads of each motor to together one at a time, making a tempory "lug terminal" out of a motor while its leads are shorted. If there is an issue with the shunted motor the good motor starts working now.  Or, unplug and test voltage on the plug. You might need to check power with a bulb to ensure a slight load  to trigger things properly too.

Updating in case someone else runs into this issue, and a bit of a "watch out for" note.

Had the GG-1 taken apart and started to look at the wiring harness after checking wheels, rollers, trucks, worm gears for cleanliness and continuity.

While I was tracing wires I noticed that a number of the wires appeared to have broken through the original heat shrink in a number of the joints. Now I don't think this was the cause but I found it worrisome anyway. I removed all the heat shrink, re-twisted and re-soldered the wiring joints. 

Followed the main powered wires from the trucks, joints/junctions back to the main board and re-soldered each of the 4 main input wires as well.

Unit seems to be running well now.

Thank you to all that replied for the help.