Help with 1st ERR install

It sounds like a dead short to me. Double check everything....maybe one of the capacitors?

ok so I went back and checked it all again and on a hunch I took the ERR board off the bracket I used to mount it to the Locomotive frame, just a piece of metal I had from an old model set. I had that bracket mounted where the old E unit used to mount to the frame.  That seemed to fix the issue, I was able to apply power to the track without any buzzing.  I just had the board resting on the wires above the frame and I did see one spark fly from the board to the frame, is that normal?

I wasn't to program the locomotive yet, not sure which direction is the Prog vs Run on that switch so I might have had it backward.

How else can I mount the board to the frame if the metal bracket I have causes a short?  I do want to get railsounds so I wanted to leave room in the belly of the engine for the speaker, so I was hoping to suspend the board over that.

Whatever you do, be very careful if you pass a screw up from the bottom of the stock ERR heatsink!…..the bottom of the board is kinda close to the bottom of the heatsink,…..a screw can easily touch the bottom of the board, and zap it dead for good!….

if you have no use for the battery well anymore, you can bridge that area with a piece of plastic, and safely mount your commander there. Here’s an example …

Pat

Thanks that is one thing I did check and that screw is not near the board. I like how you did that, I might try to create something like that tomorrow and try it. Then if I do railsounds I'll just mount the speaker elsewhere.

I'm just confused because I read in multiple places people just reuse the e unit mounting place for the err bracket. I'm not sure why mine is causing a short.

If you are careful when you mount the speaker in the well, put a piece of cardboard or thin plastic over it with a slit for the speaker wires to come up through to the sound board. If you do this, you isolate the base of the AC commander from metal, cover the speaker in lieu of a baffle and get your sound. Use 2 sided 3m tape to mount the cardboard to speaker and same for base of commander . Your sound commander can also be mounted on top of the R4LC with 2 sided tape stacked if room to clear it is in the shell.

In one of my NP F3's I converted to can motors, I did the stack in the well and it worked out fine. If you wind up not using the speaker in the well, I have built it up with a cut to fit piece of pine that makes the well flat and even with the frame.

With the ERR boards you must make absolutely sure nothing is touching the bottom of the board! I use a piece of styrene or double sided tape to insulate the board from any metal contact.

Ok I was going to grab a scrap piece of wood tomorrow from the garage tomorrow and cut a small piece to support the board. Once I have it working consistently I'll think about adding railsounds. I like the styrene idea, when I can get to hobby lobby this week I'll grab some of that.

One thing I noticed is not having the speaker makes it hard to know the status of the locomotive when programming and running.

If the install is correct, when you hit set on program, the headlight should flash and again for the aux 1 code needed for the special feature.

@Ron_S posted:

If the install is correct, when you hit set on program, the headlight should flash and again for the aux 1 code needed for the special feature.

Thanks for the heads up, that is great info. I was wondering how I could confirm programming was successful without a speaker.

OK so I got a piece of wood cut and attached the ERR board to that with double sided tape, so there is no metal near the locomotive frame that will cause a short.

Now I have another issue!

I was able to get the locomotive programmed is as number 22, but then when I address it and turn the cab 1 knob the motor tries to turn a slight bit, there is a small buzz, then everything shuts off and the ZWL red light comes on again.

Any ideas?  I have been over the wiring a bunch of times, it all looks right to me but I'm sure I'm missing something silly.  Could the black common wire to the motor post be the issue, should I bring that to the other post or another point?

This is where people get in trouble with AC commanders, and AC motors in general, …….they require quite a bit of amperage to get moving. I’d start by disconnecting the AC commander all together, and bench test your motor in the frame and KNOW you have a proven performer. These motors can take anywhere from an amp to amp and a half just to get moving!….higher on twins. I’d suggest you get that chassis working at its optimum and again, know it’s at its optimum before adding any electronics package. You must have a known good platform that’s not an amp hog before adding expensive electronics that can go poof,…..you can easily hard wire any AC motor right to track power to test in both directions….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

This is where people get in trouble with AC commanders, and AC motors in general, …….they require quite a bit of amperage to get moving. I’d start by disconnecting the AC commander all together, and bench test your motor in the frame and KNOW you have a proven performer. These motors can take anywhere from an amp to amp and a half just to get moving!….higher on twins. I’d suggest you get that chassis working at its optimum and again, know it’s at its optimum before adding any electronics package. You must have a known good platform that’s not an amp hog before adding expensive electronics that can go poof,…..you can easily hard wire any AC motor right to track power to test in both directions….

Pat

that was a good idea, this engine always ran fine, I just had issues with the E Unit and the wiring constantly coming loose.

I did as you suggested and here is what I noticed:

1. with the ERR still attached, I noticed on the track with 18V applied it was drawing 2 amps siting there idle before I even addressed the engine.  Not sure if that is normal?

2. I disconnected the ERR board and wired the engine to run forward, on the track I was at 8 amps very quickly and no motion out of the motor.  (assuming I hot wired the motor right, 3rd rail to middle and one brush of the motor?)

3. I tried another Postwar Santa Fe 2243 (same model) I have and it moved at 2 amps easy.

4. I tried my postwar EP5, same as above, at 2 amps it was moving freely on the track.

So my takeaway, unless someone tells me different, is that something is up with that motor.  I'm going to swap in the other Sante Fe motor I have into the engine with the ERR and give that a try.

If I’m reading correctly what you wrote, at 8 amps, you’re more than half way to tripping the house breaker if you’re on a 15 amp service, …..so yeah, something is up with that chassis ……need to start back from scratch, and have a GOOD working chassis ……THEN add the AC commander,…….remember, the package you add should be the icing on the cake. Never use the electronics package to “fix” a problem…..that’s not their intended use,…..good luck, and report back…

Pat

I agreed with Pat. Sounds like the motor has some issues. Check for old grease in the gears too. The F3 I did was a newer model but still has the same pullmor motors. I did a full service of both motors and trucks before I started.

Bob

ok I'm at a loss now, I completely swapped out the motor with a different one from another F3, I did clean out the drive trucks and put in new grease so everything rolls free, but still the same result.

I reconnected everything and double checked all my connections, so I'm not sure what the issue is.  Looking at the diagram again, do I need to do anything different with the common wire? does it need to come off the engine and go somewhere else?

Could the ERR board be bad?  I did buy 2 so I was thinking of swapping in the other one I have and testing that?

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

ok I'm at a loss now, I completely swapped out the motor with a different one from another F3, I did clean out the drive trucks and put in new grease so everything rolls free, but still the same result.

I reconnected everything and double checked all my connections, so I'm not sure what the issue is.  Looking at the diagram again, do I need to do anything different with the common wire? does it need to come off the engine and go somewhere else?

Could the ERR board be bad?  I did buy 2 so I was thinking of swapping in the other one I have and testing that?

Take the AC commander out of the equation all together …..in fact, remove it for now, and set it aside. Get your chassis running perfectly by simply hot wiring it temporarily. This way you can eliminate and repair any chassis issues ……you need to stop injecting the AC commander into the mix until you KNOW that chassis runs like a top without the AC Commander, ……..I’m not trying come across mean, I’m literally trying to save you from blowing up the X-pensive AC Commander,……if they know you smoked it with a failed install, it’s on you, not them…..hence the reason for the “stern” warnings??……😁😁😁

Pat

@harmonyards no problem, I didn't take it as mean, I appreciate the patience and help.

I'll do as you said and try it hot wired.  Just to confirm, hot wired means 3rd rail connected the field and one brush of the motor, correct?

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

@harmonyards no problem, I didn't take it as mean, I appreciate the patience and help.

I'll do as you said and try it hot wired.  Just to confirm, hot wired means 3rd rail connected the field and one brush of the motor, correct?

Hot wire to one brush, the other brush to the field, and the frame is already connected to the other field lead.  Don't connect the track how to the field directly!

To test the AC Commander, just connect ONLY the track power leads on the bench, NO OTHER WIRES.  check and see if it draws more than a fraction of an amp.  If so, there's a problem with the AC Commander, stop until you resolve that.

OK, followed @gunrunnerjohn directions, here are the results:

1. ERR board alone with 3rd rail and common wire attached to power, pulled just less than 2 Amps, which sounds higher than the "fraction of an Amp" mentioned.

2. Hot wired locomotive to track power (ERR board completely removed), moved no issues with less than 2 amps

Does that mean it is the ERR board?

The AC commander has a problem, so you need to address that first.  Without seeing it, it's not possible to say what happened to it.  The board should draw maybe .1 to .2 amps at most with nothing connected to it.

ok that ERR board seems to be the issue.  I had purchased 2 in order to do 2 engines.  I did a complete swap for the other board and the engine programed and worked perfect, running down the track barely pulling 2 amps.

@gunrunnerjohn @harmonyards @RSJB18  Thanks for the help.  I'll contact Trainz to exchange that other board.

Glad it was successful.  For your next step, I'd suggest a complete lube and a maintenance of the motor.  Pullmor motors like to be well lubed and have a clean commutator for best performance.

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

ok that ERR board seems to be the issue.  I had purchased 2 in order to do 2 engines.  I did a complete swap for the other board and the engine programed and worked perfect, running down the track barely pulling 2 amps.

@gunrunnerjohn @harmonyards @RSJB18  Thanks for the help.  I'll contact Trainz to exchange that other board.

Glad you got that sorted out.

Now.....you have learned the same lesson I did, don't buy used electronics!

Spend the extra cash on new unless you are like John and can troubleshoot and repair boards.

Bob

I'm guessing the triacs on that board are toasted, that's my top suspect.  On the AC board, there isn't much else that could short like that.