Help with Lionel 8363 Ground Spring

According to the K Line Maintenance Manual, below the frame, loop pointed toward the coupler.

bruce

Thanks for your reply Bruce, I really appreciate it.  Would the Lionel 8363 be in the K-Line manual? 

Rob,

Thank you very much as well.  It's amazing, I asked about 10 people and got ten different answers.  My understanding of that diagram is that the spring goes under the frame thus sitting between the truck and the frame and "pushing" upward.  Correct?

Thanks again,

Joe

Uh oh. That last pictorial was from the postwar manual...

Here is the page from the MPC Service Supplement 1:

K-Line published a hard-cover book with reprints of most Post-War service sheets.  If you're going to play with Post-War Lionel, it's a must-have.  But as seen above... MPC made changes!

Jon  

My understanding of that diagram is that the spring goes under the frame thus sitting between the truck and the frame and "pushing" upward.  Correct?

That is how I install them in Postwar locomotives

K-Line published a hard-cover book with reprints of most Post-War service sheets.  If you're going to play with Post-War Lionel, it's a must-have.  But as seen above... MPC made changes

 
MPC did make changes to Postwar Lionel products. Some changes were improvements over what was being made in the later 1960's, others not so much. And sometimes, they made mistakes.

I don't think the MPC guide is always clear about how things go together. I'd want to look at an MPC F3 that has never been disassembled to see whether they put the spring between the motor and the frame, as opposed to the truck and the frame.

I looked at a couple of MPC single motored F3 chassis that are all being offered by the same seller on EBay. The spring seems to be between the motor and the chassis (top side) on them. Is that conclusive?.... not really. I would still want to check one that I know was not taken apart since it left the factory.

I guess its also worth mentioning that one of the Lionel parts dealers has put all of the Postwar Lionel service manual pages on line. They also have some prewar material, and material they created on their own. Here is a link:

Olsen's Library

Modern era Lionel service manuals are also available on the Lionel site: Service manuals

Thanks guys!

I can't believe you all took the time to post pictures, that's very nice of all of you.

And thanks for the info, it seems that there are a bunch of different opinions out there and none are helped by the fact that even MPC could have made mistakes.  

It is interesting, because if you put the spring under the frame it sits more even with the dummy A unit, but ends to tear away a bit at the frame.  Above the frame and under the engine, the engine sits dead even with a Power F3 A unit from the 1990's (18130 Santa Fe).  Interestingly, the Santa Fe also has the flat springs under the engines above the frame.  I also noticed most MPC engine photos have them under engine/above frame.

Thank you all for responding, this is a really nice community to have as most stores couldn't care less (except for the repair man at Trainz, who was very nice and helpful).

Guy

Interestingly enough, I had a similar question when re-installing a missing ground spring into a #8477 NYC GP-9 as to which way the spring sat between the motor and the chassis.  The picture was, to my eyes, less than clear and neither way felt more natural when installing.  However, I had not thought that perhaps it should sit between the truck and the chassis - and the engine has a fair amount of lateral wobble as it goes around curves.  I'll have to see if moving it makes things more stable.

I know that wobble my friend!  Mine tends to wobble more when the spring is between the frame and the truck.  When the spring sits under the engine (and seems to cradle the engine perfectly, so I'm sticking w/this setup) there is no wobble at all.  The engine does sit a bit below the dummy A, but matches up perfectly with a 90's era Santa Fe F3 power unit.

JoeD80 posted:

I know that wobble my friend!  Mine tends to wobble more when the spring is between the frame and the truck.  When the spring sits under the engine (and seems to cradle the engine perfectly, so I'm sticking w/this setup) there is no wobble at all.  The engine does sit a bit below the dummy A, but matches up perfectly with a 90's era Santa Fe F3 power unit.

Huh - mine didn't really seem to cradle the motor either way.  Did you place the spring so that the longer end was "higher" (i.e., towards the motor) or the shorter end?

Upon some more thought, I wonder if I got a defective spring.  Looking at it from the side, it forms an "S" shape.  Either way you flip it, there's a sharp edge against the frame which didn't seem like a good design.  Is it supposed to be shaped that way or should it be more like a "U" (such that the two ends both rest against the motor and the cup of the "U" surrounding the cutout rests on the frame?

I have found them on top, under neath, turned either way. The bottom line is them seem to do the job no matter how they are set. Some don't even have the ground spring.

Here is my photo essay on the orientation of a 8363 and its ground spring(motor/truck has been lubed 1x or 2x since 1973, but the spring has never been removed from the motor until today):

I've installed and re-installed ground springs on F units, and like the above photo (thanks Bob), it's just always seemed a natural fit to orient them just like the photo shows, cradling the motor to the frame, although I recognize not everyone would see it that way. The spring does exactly that, it helps to keep the truck's power connects at all times in contact. I wonder if it's really a good idea to run without one? Could doing that cause even split-second electrical muck-ups? That would not be good for the motor... 

Rob!  Thank you so much for the pictures, I never got to thank you.

Ok, so continuing on my quest to perfect this engine.  If the engine is reassembled with the spring as shown in the pictures, does the "A" unit sit lower than the "B" unit when they are placed back to back on the same track? Is this normal of MPC F3 "AA" units?  I looked some pictures, and it seems like the power A does indeed sit lower on some F3 sets, especially noticeable on Early MPC and the 1991 Santa Fe F3 sets.

Any ideas? Suggestions?  Thanks!

Joe

And thank you to everyone for the diagram information as well, I had no idea Lionel had the supplements up on their website!  PARTS HEAVEN!

Funny you should mention it....

I have been spending a lot of time looking at my MPC 8464 / 8465 Rio Grande F3s (they are on a shelf in my office, and... 'nuff said). Anyway, I have been idly wondering why it it that the powered A unit sits lower in the rear than the dummy A. Can't open the unit up now, but there is definitely not a ground spring in the space below the frame and above the rear truck. However, the paint is ground off the frame on the underside, as though a spring could go there. The paint-less area is definitely a professional job - perfect circle. For what it's worth.

That is exactly what mine looks like!  Are you the original owner of the Rio Grande F3s? Maybe somebody put the ground spring there at one point?  Strange, you think they would have engineered them to sit even.  Every pair I look at through the years seems to vary.