Help With Pennsylvania RR Passenger Train Question

I don't know the answer to your question but you have a great looking train.  NH Joe

I have passed your question on to my PRR Louisville line experts.  I know that the early power for the South Wind was streamlined K4s #2665.  Williams made a brass model of #1120, which was identical to #2665 (obviously except for the cab number).

By the way, your video shows E7's on that train and not E8's (square portholes on E7's vs. round portholes on E8's).  Since they are tuscan red, the scene is from mid-1952 or later.

@Bob posted:

I have passed your question on to my PRR Louisville line experts.  I know that the early power for the South Wind was streamlined K4s #2665.  Williams made a brass model of #1120, which was identical to #2665 (obviously except for the cab number).

By the way, your video shows E7's on that train and not E8's (square portholes on E7's vs. round portholes on E8's).  Since they are tuscan red, the scene is from mid-1952 or later.

Thanks, Bob. My mistake on the E unit... Mea culpa!!!

Well almost anything is possible. The Standard steam would have been a k4 or two. But anything may go on the main line between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh to keep the train moving like an M1a or a T1.

Note that since the cars are painted F[leet] O[f] M[odernism], the F.O.M. cars were repainted Tuscan pinstripes before the Tuscan painted E7's  came out. To be time/date correct, the f.o.m..fleet at best during early diesels was pulled by as delivered 5 stripe DLGE PRR E7's.

T1's?

Yes, you know, the PRR T1; it was a 4-4-4-4 steam engine?

Here is a stock image...

T1s did work the Panhandle line in the late 40s and probably into the 50s.    This is the route from Pittsburgh to St Louis across Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois through Columbus, Indianapolis etc.   There have been a few stories published in the PRRT&HS Journal about runs with T1s on this line.   

I don't know where the Southwind ran so I don't know if it touched these tracks at all      If it came down through Cincinnati, it is possible a T1 could have been assigned I guess.   If it ran from NYC or Philly Through DC, it is less likely a T1 would have been assigned anywhere on the route.

@prrjim posted:

T1s did work the Panhandle line in the late 40s and probably into the 50s.    This is the route from Pittsburgh to St Louis across Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois through Columbus, Indianapolis etc.   There have been a few stories published in the PRRT&HS Journal about runs with T1s on this line.  

I don't know where the Southwind ran so I don't know if it touched these tracks at all      If it came down through Cincinnati, it is possible a T1 could have been assigned I guess.   If it ran from NYC or Philly Through DC, it is less likely a T1 would have been assigned anywhere on the route.

Thanks, Jim. I did a bit more research on the route the South Wind ran on the PRR and find that it ran from Chicago to Logansport (IN), Indianapolis, and then to Louisville where it was passed off to the L&N. From your description of the Panhandle Line, it looks like the route may have run on the Panhandle.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Well almost anything is possible. The Standard steam would have been a k4 or two. But anything may go on the main line between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh to keep the train moving like an M1a or a T1.

Note that since the cars are painted F[leet] O[f] M[odernism], the F.O.M. cars were repainted Tuscan pinstripes before the Tuscan painted E7's  came out. To be time/date correct, the f.o.m..fleet at best during early diesels was pulled by as delivered 5 stripe DLGE PRR E7's.

Thanks for the info... as I just posted above, the South Wind ran from Chicago to Louisville, so I think we can rule out the main line. And thanks for the info on the FOM - never heard that term before... I learn new things all the time around here!!! As for being time/date correct, I am not a rivet counter so being a bit out of sync doesn’t upset me too much (I’ve been know to run a string of Gunderson Maxi-stacks behind a BigBoy).

I think it had to be on the Panhandle main from Logansport to Indy, but not sure.    What is interesting is that the only line I know about from Indy to Louisville goes down Madison Hill which is a super steep grade.   I can't imagine a passenger train running on that, so Pennsy must have had another line from Indy to Louisville.

@prrjim posted:

I think it had to be on the Panhandle main from Logansport to Indy, but not sure.    What is interesting is that the only line I know about from Indy to Louisville goes down Madison Hill which is a super steep grade.   I can't imagine a passenger train running on that, so Pennsy must have had another line from Indy to Louisville.

Jim:

PRR had a line that crossed the Ohio at Louisville. This line is now operated by a short line, the Louisville & Indiana. I’ve pasted in a link to their website below. Note the railroad’s logo. 😉👍

Curt

https://www.anacostia.com/railroads/lirc

Paul, according to the book Limiteds, Locals and Expresses in Indiana, 1838-1971 by Craig Sanders (Indiana University Press), power for the The South Wind consisted of K4s Pacifics followed by Baldwin passenger sharks (as done in brass 3-rail by Weaver Models) and then followed by E7 and E8 locomotives.  There is no mention of T1's.

I sent you an e-mail with scans of the appropriate pages.  They are not posted here due to potential copyright issues.

Bob,

How did the Pennsy get into Louisville?    I assume they did not use the Madison HIll line.

@Bob posted:

Paul, according to the book Limiteds, Locals and Expresses in Indiana, 1838-1971 by Craig Sanders (Indiana University Press), power for the The South Wind consisted of K4s Pacifics followed by Baldwin passenger sharks (as done in brass 3-rail by Weaver Models) and then followed by E7 and E8 locomotives.  There is no mention of T1's.

I sent you an e-mail with scans of the appropriate pages.  They are not posted here due to potential copyright issues.

Bob;

Thank you so much for all the info... greatly appreciated

I don’t own a K4s, so I might have to try the T1 anyway (special run, filling in for a disabled K4!!!). I do have a set of PRR Baldwin Sharks, but they are Brunswick Green. May have to look for one of the recent Lionel Tuscan versions. From what I’ve read, the FOM cars were retired in the late 40’s/1950 which may have been before my E7’s came on the scene.

Luckily, my layout exists in a permanent time warp, so absolutely anything is possible

@juniata guy posted:

Jim:

PRR had a line that crossed the Ohio at Louisville. This line is now operated by a short line, the Louisville & Indiana. I’ve pasted in a link to their website below. Note the railroad’s logo. 😉👍

Curt

https://www.anacostia.com/railroads/lirc

Thanks for the info Curt. I’m glad to see the Keystone lives on!!! The map of their service area seems to conform with the map/timetable I found online. Unfortunately, the one I found doesn’t have nearly the level of detail of the map in your link.

@Apples55 posted:

I do have a set of PRR Baldwin Sharks, but they are Brunswick Green. May have to look for one of the recent Lionel Tuscan versions. From what I’ve read, the FOM cars were retired in the late 40’s/1950 which may have been before my E7’s came on the scene.

Luckily, my layout exists in a permanent time warp, so absolutely anything is possible

The sharks you have and the new Lionels are FREIGHT units (with 4-wheel trucks) and these did not have boilers for steam heat thus were not used on passenger trains.  The PASSENGER sharks as imported by Weaver have 6-wheel trucks and are longer than an E7/E8.  The PRR never, ever owned a freight shark painted tuscan red.  They were all Dark Green Locomotive Enamel (DGLE).

A time warp is one thing, as with your E7's, but warping to an alternate reality (tuscan freight sharks) is a warp too far. 

@prrjim posted:

Bob,

How did the Pennsy get into Louisville?    I assume they did not use the Madison HIll line.

I believe they went more or less straight south from Indianapolis to Louisville.  Madison Hill is about 20 miles east of this route.  Mike H's son John is the expert on that line.