Henry Ford Museum C&O 1601 Allegheny

Growing up near Dearborn, this prototype is the only reason I have a 1:48 c&O ALLEGHENY.

 

All my other engines are diesels.

Wouldn't it be great for the CSX to have that 1601 restored to full operation, and have Rich Melvin at the throttle.

I know what CSX thinks about Steam Locomotives on their Railroad!.............. Not "NO, but He** No"..........Wishful Thinking anyway!.................Brandy!

 

Thanks for the pictures there, "PennsyPride"!...........

PP94,

    Thanks for the posting the pictures, I doubt I will ever be able to visit the museum and loved the review you gave.

PCRR/Dave

Nice.

It has been 70 years since I've been to the museum so thanks for sharing the pics.
Ray.

I had the opportunity to visit the Henry Ford Museum back in the early 90's and had a chance to see this unbelievable locomotive.  Not only is it huge but all the "stuff" hanging off it makes it look so impressive.

 

It is the reason I now own the Lionel JLC Allegheny (and love it).

 

Thanks for the pictures,

Don

I once talked with someone who'd worked on N&W 1218 in its original restoration and he told me that several museum locomotives that looked good were poor restoration candidates. He mentioned this one, saying it was in pretty poor mechanical shape. I've never seen it in person though, so I can't comment.

I have seen the one (1604) that was in Roanoke and now in Baltimore, though.

Any sight of the GG-1 yet. I've lost touch with Ford moving it from Cooperstown NY. I know they did the abatement clean up on it. But then they found out how much it would cost to move and there it sat.

 

Jamie

Here is was about 8 years ago. it is 4932 not 4934 as marked. Ford was working on it at the time.

 

 

 

 

Thanks everyone for the comments! Its a magnificent museum if you get the chance to go see it! 

Maybe you got this one, 1601, confused with the one in Baltimore?? I have seen both Alleghenies and the 1601 in my lay person opinion, looks MUCH better than the 1604. 

 

If I recall correctly, the 1604 was caught in a really bad flood prior to its move to Baltimore that damaged the locomotive pretty badly. From the information I have gathered with regard to the 1601, on the other hand, it was literally steamed and moved right up to where it sits now. That information makes sense considering you can still see coal in the stoker pan and the black soot covering the firebox interior.

 

The Allegheny in the Ford Museum might look cosmetically OK but the cost of replacing and or reconditioning parts would be astronomical and very time consuming. It has already taken a dedicated group of professionals and volunteers well over a decade to restore the AT&SF Northern in New Mexico to working order. The Allegheny's degree of complexity is absolutely mind boggling and far exceeds that of the Northern so I don't expect its return to operation anytime soon. I don't think anyone interested in restoring steam engines has access to the money needed to restore the Allegheny less of course Bill Gates decides to steps forward with a sizable donation but I'm not holding my breath!

 

The Allegheny was (is) a magnificent piece of machinery and will most likely remain a museum piece for the foreseeable future. We should be thankful 2 examples are still around for our viewing pleasure.

 

...And, not only that, but as I recall the Henry Ford museam was structurally modified (deconstructed/reconstructed) in order to accommodate the 1601 in the first place! 

 

That cost repeated and added to the cost of the engine's rejuvenation...and expense of storing/operating elsewhere....never to return to the protection of the museam's innards!!...would be folly to sell to anyone.

 

But, I can imagine there were similar talks about a Big Boy returning to operation.  And,....well......!  Never say never???

 

KD

Nope, he was very specific.

Almost any steam locomotive can look good if you break out enough paint and elbow grease. The main thing is that it's in good mechanical shape and the boiler is in good overall condition and not needing a great deal of replacement work. Just like a car, you can't rely on just the paint job, you gotta open the hood and get looking around inside to get an idea if it can run easily (or even at all).

That's where most people mess up when they see a 'stuffed and mounted' locomotive somewhere. There are plenty of steam engines out there that might look like junk because the paint is peeling (or long gone) and others that look brand new but are in fact ate up and totally worn out inside, where it counts.

1604 was in a flood when the Roanoke museum site at Wasena Park flooded in the Fall of 1985 and moved her a couple of feet (no small thing, considering her dead weight). I saw her in Baltimore maybe 3 years later and even then you could still see signs of mud where the flood had hit her.

I agree it's all a moot point given the effort to get 1601 in that building. There's no way you'll likely ever see any serious consideration to get a locomotive out of a building like that.

That said, look at all the effort that went into getting the British A4 Pacific "Dwight D Eisenhower" out of the museum in Green Bay and across the Atlantic for a temporary exhibit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/..._Dwight_D_Eisenhower

Actually the 1604 in Baltimore has not been repainted however it is now inside and has, from what my sources have said, a paint preserving oil based concoction rubbed on the paint. It is not a new coat of paint but gives it a nice shine and it is under cover. 

 

There was a "rumor" many years ago (late 1990s/early 2Ks) that CSX "inquired" about it's availability....we see where that went but it is nice to dream!

For what it's worth, all you folks that "would love to see a C&O H-8 restored to operation", please remember that the C&O H-8 class locomotives had EXTREMELY high axle loadings, i.e. in excess of 75,000 pounds per axle, not to mention total weight. Also, that three axle trailing truck, required to support that huge firebox, was VERY derailment pron when making reverse moves within yard trackage.

 

Yes, it was a truly magnificent locomotive, but never expect to see one in operation again.  

From what I recall, the Henry Ford Museum was supposed to get a different allegheny, but it was needed during a power shortage and was in better shape than 1601, so 1601 was moved to the Ford Rouge plant, cosmetically restored and shoved into the museum.  That being said, though it looks pretty nice (although covered in over 50 years worth of dust) 1601 was not in good shape when it was sent to the museum.  It definitely didn't move to, or into the museum under its own power though.

 

As for the GG1 owned by the museum, it's still sitting in New York.  As far as I know, there are no current plans to bring it to Dearborn due to the inability to transport it and the fact that there isn't really room to display it.

 

A photo from the museum collections website of the Allegheny posed outside for publicity photographs prior to being shoved into the building.  I purchased a copy of a similar photo awhile back, that also includes the NYC Aerotrain posed on the Michigan Central mainline in the background as well.  The arrival of the 1601 was a pretty big deal back then.

 

Correct! Plus, the C&O didn't use that "C&O For Progress" logo on the front of the H-8s when in regular service. The C&O painted her up that way so she would "look good" in the Museum.

Interesting! Thanks for the facts guys! 

 

Wasn't there a serious consideration in the last thirty years or so where CSX people looked into the feasibility of restoring one of these giants? Someone on here mentioned that years ago....

I understand that! I wouldn't be surprised if some of the classic cars they have there at the Henry Ford Museum are simply shells of their old selves! 

 

I'm so used to seeing rust bucket locomotives at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania that I often get over excited when something is dolled up really well! 

You'd be surprised.  Many of the automobiles in the museum are actually operable, or easily made to be.  Some have travelled to different parts of the world for displays of different types.  They usually showcase a few out in Greenfield Village during the two annual car shows they do each summer.

I would sure hope some of those cars are operable! Adds more value! 

 

I would especially like to see that '65 Mustang Convertible run..... 

As I recall, when Richard Kughn liquidated his car collection, train collection and CarRail, it was reported the CarRail Standard Gauge layout was going to be placed in the Henry Ford. Is the layout in the photos part of the CarRail layout? As I recall, the layout was much larger than the layout in the photos. Anyone know what happen to the big layout?

This weekend July 25-26 the Museum will have the extra cost Makers Fair traveling show at the Henry Ford.  The Ford Model Railroad Club will have our module there running DCS and Legacy + conventional.  See the new Lionel Big Boy aux water tender and sound reefer set & more.  Thanks Bruce

I believe some, or all, of the tinplate buildings and other details on the layout at the museum were from the CarRail layout, but the layout itself is not.  It's actually the platform for a Christmas train display the museum used to do annually with homemade gingerbread buildings and such, but it was made a permanent display operated by museum volunteers several years ago.

 

I would especially like to see that '65 Mustang Convertible run..... 

 

Hah.  I have two.  Both red, both convertibles, although one is 1964 1/2, and the other is 1966.  They run once a week, taking me to an airport where the oldest airplane I fly pre-dates WWII.

 

I would love to see more steam restored.  I am hoping that some day we can restore our Harriman ten-wheeler to operation again.  I think I would bet against any of these giants running again, although I hope the UP proves me wrong.

The Allegheny is definitely my favorite thing at the museum, but there are so many amazing things to see there. I go at least once a year. As Bruce said previously, the Ford Model Railroad Club will be there this weekend for the Maker's Faire event. Perfect time to go to the museum. So much to see and do there! I'd love to see the Allegheny be restored to operation, but I don't think that will ever come to be.

I can find out what happen to it... I know I had a chance to get some of the 3/4"

plywood from it... I believe that the museum did not want the Standard gauge stuff

as it was not ALL original. The motors were replaced at car rail because of the

amount of run time they got. The old postwar motors just would not hold up.

So the museum might have them, if they do they will not run them.

 

anyway...

the pieces on display in the museum are actually a collection that Dick bought

from a museum in Florida. I guess the place was folding up so he bought it.

 

The original layout had a ginger bread theme to it. Houses ect. The layout was put

away for a couple years and when they went to re use it, they found that the local

rodents had eaten most of it.

 

Dick came to the rescue and donated what you see presently....

 

 THEN DROOL OVER THIS ?  What year is it ?????

 

 Sorry it was a trick question. It's a 1959... Yup it's one of 2 prototypes...

 It's in the warehouse.  You have to open the hood with a coat hanger, pump

 the gas pedal a lot, also spray ether in the carburetor. But it does run !!!!

 

 

 Really glad you enjoyed it. Personally I like the village better. ( It's behind the  museum )

 

If you can make it up in December let me know, as our club sets up our

O gauge layout in the village. Bring some Christmas trains with you.

Along with that a model T ride. Great Christmas event for the family.

 

Any other time get a hold of Jake ( SantaFe158 ). He's learning to engineer the

running steam engines on site. I'm sure he'd be glad to give you a private tour...

 

Bruce..