Haven't the Airline Pilots unions fought against this same thing for years? Would this force it into airliner cockpits as well then?

I thought that both UP and BNSF have been installing "inward facing" cameras for some time, along with the long standing forwarding facing cameras.

I think they should pass a law to have cameras facing them at their desks in the Senate.    Then we could see them fall asleep when they are supposed to runing the country!

this is CSPAN, though i've often nodded off even when they are awake and speaking.

Mike, I thought the same thing, even if they show an engineer sound asleep in the cab, how is that going to prevent anything.

I like this. 

On the other hand, maybe if they were asleep they would cause less damage. 

George

Can't hardly blame the engineers or conductors though.  I don't know about passenger train crews but I worked on freight trains.  And after working 7 or more days in a row without a break and working for 12 or more hours a day (I know FRA says you can only work 12 hours but you can actually be on the job way more than 12 hours) and then getting a call for an 11pm or midnight run can be difficult to stay awake when it gets to be 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning.  So, what is the answer...more people?  Regular hours? 

Rick

This is nothing new, we already have outward facing cameras. Some of the RR's already have inward facing cameras, the UP has announced they will be installing them soon, and BNSF hasn't said a thing YET. KCS and NS units come with inward facing cameras from GE now.

Like many of the posts above, they don't stop anything at the time, its only gonna show what happened after the fact.

BNSF is already (and has been) working with PTC (Positive Train Control) software as well. Again, there and some things that it will NOT, nor can NOT prevent.

It's doesn't matter what type of technology we have, or how many more rules they force on us, **** is still going to happen. No one can eliminate human factor or mechanical factors.

Every holiday we hear about how many people were killed while driving the freeways. Have they shut down the freeways for the holidays? NO! Have they implemented new laws and added more check points? YES! Has it prevented people from being killed on the freeways during the holidays? NO! You can't stop things from happening. 

Law makers and companies can implement more laws, more rules, more regulations, more technology, it doesn't matter. Sometimes it takes 2 crews and 24 hours to move a train 83 miles now, all this stuff does is bring things to a stand still.

work at a ski area we have cameras every place that is important, facing all lifts, hall ways, lodge, parking lot. pump house, and it helps  keep everyone on there toes, as I tell them don't be stupid you have 16 cameras watching you. at first I though it was a bit much but it came in handy more then once .

A few things to think about:

• Nobody likes being "spied on" but safety is an ongoing issue, and, as better technology becomes practicable, it should be used for purposes of verifying safe operation.
• The time has come to start using inward facing cameras.  The Carrier should randomly monitor them, just as they do event recorders, only to verify that the operating rules concerning alertness and use of forbidden items (such as music players, books/magazines/newspapers, games, etc., in addition to the more common phones).  They should also be used to monitor specific employees who have incurred frequent discipline, have had drug or alcohol issues, or have been reported by fellow employees.  Those are the high-risk employees and they simply have to be more frequently observed in order to keep them honest or dismiss them before they cause death, injury or destruction.  Nobody in train or engine service wants to work with others who cannot or will not stay awake.  The Carrier could require medical treatment for those it would help and fire those who just don't care.  It is too important to ignore.
• Railroads are subject to liability on a scale matched by few other businesses.  They cannot subject themselves to charges that they did not act with prudence in employing reasonable and available technology to assist in verifying compliance with the railroad and Federal rules and regulations.
• Once again, and this needs to be bold: If the railroad does not act on its own initiative to use inward-facing cameras, then Congress will enact legislation to require it and the FRA will enforce it.  It is far better for the railroads to do it proactively than to have the government do it for them.  Look at the inflexible and complicated Hours of Service Law enacted by Congress a short time back.
• And -- the bottom line -- if we are doing what we are supposed to do, then we do not lose anything by being observed while on duty in the cab of a locomotive.

RickC, we can no longer work more than 6 days without two days off and every once in awhile may work 7 days in a row and must take 3 days off.

Politicians make rules on things they know nothing about. The Federal Rest Law is pretty much a joke concerning pool freight crews getting proper rest.

Once the pool crew member ties up from the 6th or 7th start in a row,  the crew member is forced to take Federal Rest, but where I work the crews are on a blueprint board. So, once that members turn gets first out, it stays there until the crew member completes his Federal Rest, (2 or 3 days.) Once rested they are called 1st and head out town. At the away from home terminal they tie up 1st out and get called on their rest, (must be off 10 hours undisturbed rest, we get a two hour call) so they are off 12 hours before actually reporting in for work. But, on tie up at the home terminal they are still not in the right blueprint spot so they go first out again and possibly 10 hours later they get called back to work. This continues until they are back in their assigned blueprint spot in the rotation or until they work 6 days in a row again and thus forced back into Federal Rest.  

There have been times where the crewmember can be caught in such a rotation for weeks.  

The purpose of the crew member's turn being held first out is so they can recoop the pay for they days they were required to take federal rest.

Not all railroads or all sections of a railroad work under the same contracts or have blueprint boards. Most of the time it works out where a crew member will have 24 hours off after a trip before reaching 6 or 7 days. That resets the counter.

Again it is a screwy system enacted by 99.9% of the politicians who have no clue how through freight pool crews work.

I should be retired next summer before many of the locomotives have inward facing cameras!

Dan    

My first reaction to the news of that wreck was " why was that guy by himself in that cab?"  The news then said that an emergency mandate went out putting two crewmembers on these types of trains.

It is now possible to operate an airliner with only one pilot.  There is lots of automation for backup.  You do not want - ever - to take a redeye flight with only one pilot.  This, from a guy who made a living flying the 757 from Vegas to Kennedy starting at midnight.

• Once again, and this needs to be bold: If the railroad does not act on its own initiative to use inward-facing cameras, then Congress will enact legislation to require it and the FRA will enforce it.  It is far better for the railroads to do it proactively than to have the government do it for them.  Look at the inflexible and complicated Hours of Service Law enacted by Congress a short time back.
• I think 90 has it right.  When American industry starts to REALLY regulate itself, the Government can stay out of the way.  Or to preventt the situation the old cartoon Pogo warns about:  We have met the enemy, and he is us!

Diesel Dan, the last year I worked for NS I worked Jan, Feb, and 1/2 of March and was only off 4 days that whole stretch.  Most days were 12 or more hours.  Raked in the cash but I was like a zombie.

Rick

The long hours and unpredictable "schedule" are the main reasons I'd probably never work for a railroad again.  The money is good (on paper at least), but comes at the expense of many things... including your health.  I had lost over 30 pounds and was severely sleep-deprived when I made the decision to get out...

I am just darn glad that I am Retired.

More words that make everyone feel like the politicians are doing something. More employees is the answer, but the government has regulated the cost of that option out of the railroads options.

Thanks to the railroaders for posting a bit of reality.

No one has to physically monitor inward facing cameras. The cameras can be monitored automatically by pixel change detection technology which is commonly used in CCTV surveillance in the banking industry.  If there is no pixel change detected after a short period of time indicating that the operator isn't moving, an audible alert could go off both in the cab and a monitoring center.

Now THAT'S just what every locomotive cab REALLY needs!!!!!

For some more perspective, here's the report from the 1972 IC commuter train wreck.

Rusty

How do more cameras set off an alarm and wake up a sleepy engineer?

The train that crashed had an engineer warning device in the loco only, not in the rear end where the engineer was operating at the time of the crash.

So yes, there's one train crash (albeit tragic) and the simple/affordable way to help prevent another is to install engineer warning devices on both ends of Metro-North trains. But no, let's use it as another excuse to increase surveillance in our growing police state.

That is a way to detect dozing, but more extensive evaluation is needed.  Actually, they do need to be randomly monitored to verify that on-board employees are not reading or playing a Game-Boy, or listening to music.  The monitoring needs to have three facets:

1. Randomly review about 20% of the trips on each Subdivision monthly.
2. Specifically review every on-board employee at least quarterly.
3. Specifically review otherwise identified high-risk on-board employees at least monthly and at varying times of day.

Item 1 will take care of most of items 2 and 3.  It would not take long for a fast-forward review of the recorded video, and it would also be used to verify dozing.

80% of the employees do not need this kind of monitoring.  Of the 20% who do, some will become compliant because they know they are being watched.  Some will require dismissal because they simply do not want to obey rules.  And some will be found to have medical conditions which can be managed to eliminate the tendency to doze.

If railroads voluntarily do this, they will avoid having uninformed Congressional Representatives grandstanding and forcing onerous requirements on the carriers.  Additionally, they will avoid handing ammunition to plaintiff attorneys in lawsuits.

As information, BNSF has been installing inward facing cameras in all Company motor vehicles, including vehicles assigned to supervisors and officials, as well as contract crew transport vehicles.  They are maintained and monitored by an outside firm.  For the safety of the public, customers, and employees, everyone has the same obligation to remain alert and comply with Company rules while operating or riding in trains, motor vehicles and on- and off-track machines.

I will tip my hat to Matt Rose for that.

The lavatories are next!!!
Ralph

I've got a much better idea.

How about you give me (a voter), a camera and a button with the ability to control electroshocks to the posterior of my elected Congressional representatives (1 Congressman, 2 Senators).

I'll get their attention.   And they deserve a lot more attention than an overworked, erratically scheduled locomotive engineer.  After all, how many times do engineers screw up compared to Congress? 

George

G3750,

Well said!!!!!

Ralph

Spoken like a true company official Tom! I thought you retired.

Haha, yes, I did.   But this issue goes way beyond labor relations.  We are on camera in most office buildings, all banks and convenience stores (including the gas pump islands), airports, city buses, and so many other places that it is impossible to make a good case against inward-facing cab cameras.

I no longer have a dog in this fight, except that I am always on the side of actual safety and I step back and take a broad look at these issues.  In this case, the greater good is well served by cameras, and it's just better to do it voluntarily, as opposed to doing it the government way. The more rules they attach to how it is to be done, the more opportunities there are for plaintiff attorneys to attempt to paint railroads as uncaring and holding the same cavalier attitude toward the public that they held in 1885.

Remember, if Conrail had taken proactive anti-drug and alcohol measures on its own, Ricky Gates would have been fired before he caused a horrible wreck and there would be no Federal drug and alcohol testing with its many requirements.

    Tom, you really are into your own BS. So you have a Sleep Deprived Engineer who has never been observed sleeping finally doze off. Is this going to make the railroads address the reason for sleep deprivation? Are they going to have designated call windows so that the train crews that are on call can plan when to get rested. 24 hours off duty does nothing for rest if you are awake 10 hours before being called out and then have to work 12 hrs on top of that. The railroads have been fighting calling windows for years. The only thing the camera will do is take blame from the company and their lousy work schedule and lay blame on the train crew when there is an accident.

     Has any railroad other than Conrail even tried to do anything about the problem of Sleep Deprivation? After the Conrail studies we were encouraged to get a few minutes shuteye if we were being held somewhere. We were even given an assigned quiet radio station that we could be notified on when the dispatcher was ready to move us. The day Norfolk Southern took over that was all thrown out the window and anyone caught with there eyes shut were immediately taken out of service. We had rooms set up at the terminal were you could go to rest if your train was late arriving. NS locked these rooms up on day one. 

    We had a few that really needed to be disciplined but most of us where very dedicated just tired from working 8 to 9 days a week. How many times does a Sleep Deprived engineer momentarily nod his head on camera before being removed from service? How many Sleep Deprived Engineers do you remove from service before the railroad addresses the root cause of Sleep Deprivation?

  "Remember, if Conrail had taken proactive anti-drug and alcohol measures on its own, Ricky Gates would have been fired before he caused a horrible wreck and there would be no Federal drug and alcohol testing with its many requirements."

   Is Conrail the only railroad that ever had an employee with a drug and alcohol problem? I think this was an industry wide problem not just Conrails. Of all the years we had random drug test I was randomly tested one time. What makes you so sure he would have been caught before the accident? This is like a slap in the face every time Ricky Gates name even comes up. How many other railroads at that time had proactive anti-drug and alcohol measures? This was Not just a Conrail problem.

In todays world that is not all bad.

Soooo, it's ok to have the accident as long as the engineer is caught and the company doesn't have to be held responsible? That is what you will have as long as Sleep Deprivation is not addressed.