"Hi, Rail" to "Hi-rail"

I've been under the impression that 3-rail O gauge is called "hi-rail" because the rail heights of the available types of 3-rail track (Lionel O-27, O-31 tubular, Super O, Fastrack, Gargraves, MTH Scaletrax, and Atlas O) are greater than prototypical. The American Railway Engineering Association lists the height of 136 pound-per-yard rail as 7-5/16 inches - which scales to 0.1523 inches in 1:48 (Code 152). I don't think that any of these brands have a rail height that small. For example, I believe that Atlas O 3-rail is code 225. The deep flanges of 3-rail wheels are too large (high) to operate on track with prototypical rail height, but they are needed to prevent derailments, especially with a tubular rail profile. Just my opinion.

MELGAR

I think you need to file that story with the one about how the Roman horses' behinds dictated the distance between modern railway rails, and the one about Newton getting hit on the head with an apple.

@MELGAR posted:

I've been under the impression that 3-rail O gauge is called "hi-rail" because the rail heights of the available types of 3-rail track (Lionel O-27, O-31 tubular, Super O, Fastrack, Gargraves, MTH Scaletrax, and Atlas O) are greater than prototypical.

That is what I believe too, Melgar

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

I think you need to file that story with the one about how the Roman horses' behinds dictated the distance between modern railway rails, and the one about Newton getting hit on the head with an apple.

LOL

You are most likely right Arthur, but ya gotta admit that it was an interesting story the guy wrote.

I'm with Arthur Bloom on this one. Nothing really mysterious or novel about the term. It evolved as a way to distinguish more realistic layout modeling from what we commonly associate with toy train layouts (neither of which is really superior to the other . . .simply different approaches). And, of course, it logically ties things together a bit with the simple fact that the track typically used for both toy train layouts and hi-rail layouts is significantly larger, scale-wise, than that used by the prototype.

I was pretty sure I’d heard this story before on the OGR forum…

https://ogrforum.com/...-of-the-term-hi-rail

That is the same book I'm reading now; The Model RailRoad Book by Morgan. I picked it up from the TCA library booth in the Yellow Hall at York.

Thanks for the link to the earlier thread

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

I think you need to file that story with the one about how the Roman horses' behinds dictated the distance between modern railway rails, and the one about Newton getting hit on the head with an apple.

The only thing I know about Roman horses is that when Caligula appointed one to the Senate, at least he appointed the WHOLE horse, unlike some previously appointed Representatives... however it is undoubtedly true that the 4' 8 1/2" gauge was derived from the then-common practice of building horse-hauled colliery tramways to gauges between 4' and 4'8".

These were ad-hoc gauges but this suited the horse, and provided single waggons just about capable of being moved short distances by hand, and in short trains (depending on grade and curvature) by horse. 4' 8" was the existing gauge of the first such system to commission the construction of steam locomotives.

Stephenson, builder of the first truly viable locomotives (Hackworth et al built locomotives for niche jobs, lacking development potential) started with 4'8" because that was what was there, and progressed to 4' 8 1/2" based upon experience.

I've had a copy of The Model Railroad Book by Cmdr. Warren Morgan since it was originally published in 1953 and can confirm the story as recounted by @Will here -https://ogrforum.com/...-of-the-term-hi-rail.

For what it's worth, some years later I worked at Polk's in Manhattan where this tale is said to have originated, and it was then still being told by the "old timers"  remaining on the staff.

- Mike

GARGRAVES' UNIVERSAL TRACKAGE  For Scale or Tinplate (the PERFECT Hi.Rail or Hi.Iron!) This is GarGraves' patented, flexible, Universal track. As the illustration shows, the steel rails (3/ 16" hiqh) and wooden ties are built to the exactly correct size and shape for 0 gauge Scale. The patented feature of construction, which eliminates spike heads (thereby permitting tinplate flanges to run perfectly on scale rail). and which permits curves of any radius to be easily bent, is built into the rail and lies below the web of the rail, and does not in the least detract from the perfect appearance of the track.

An ad on page 34, of the December, 1946, Model Builder Magazine.

http://magazine.trainlife.com/...017/08/mb_194612.pdf

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Actually the 4' 8 1/2 gauge likely did come in some way or another from the roman cart. Whether the English used the gauge of the Roman Imperial Chariot because of ruts that were left behind is at the least hard to prove. On the other hand, that gauge likely had a reason behind it, the Romans tended to be very engineering oriented and they likely found out that gauge worked on their chariots, it also likely meant when building their roads it minimized the width required while making the performance of the chariot good. If English carts were using those roads, keeping the same gauge made sense, and when they built new roads they prob copied what the Romans had done.  And when they built the first railroads, they used the cart spacing, it makes sense.  I don't think it was the rear of a roman horse, I suspect that gauge was created by the Romans because it met a number of needs, and passed forward in history for the reasons I mentioned. I don't think it was the ruts per se that determined it, I think it was originally the width of the roman roads and that the English when Rome still occcupied Britain would use what the romans did, and tradition did the rest ..so it isn't myth while not being entirely true.

"O gauge scale"  in my youth, seemed to imply scale, realistic,  accurately modeled,  engines modeled in brass, tin, or cast metal, that ran on  3 or 2 rail ..flat topped solid rail track.

"High-rail" or  "3 rail" were the "toy" trains of my dad's era. Rounded 3 rail metal tubular track.

"O gauge" seemed to imply that train Model engines were more forgiving when it came to # of rivets or scale details. ( they were Reasonable representations of what ever model engine)

The origin of  the term "High-rail" in  "Model Railroad Book" by Warren F. Morgan,  published in 1953 is a nice story.  If it is considered by many to be "folk etymology" well....that's ok.

I'm a 3 rail ( high-rail) fan, and since toy trains are the stuff of childhood dreams , " folk etymology" seems to fit right in.

As a side note tho...

"Rails" seem to be a consideration today.

MTH listed their premiere line 3 rail locomotive products in 2 categories. "Scale" and "high-rail"

Here's a link

Scale or Hi-Rail Wheels - Which are Right for You? | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS
https://www.mthtrains.com/news/254

As always over time words change meanings.

I'm nostalgic.

@justakid posted:

"O gauge scale"  in my youth, seemed to imply scale, realistic,  accurately modeled,  engines modeled in brass, tin, or cast metal, that ran on  3 or 2 rail ..flat topped solid rail track.

"High-rail" or  "3 rail" were the "toy" trains of my dad's era. Rounded 3 rail metal tubular track.

"O gauge" seemed to imply that train Model engines were more forgiving when it came to # of rivets or scale details. ( they were Reasonable representations of what ever model engine)

The origin of  the term "High-rail" in  "Model Railroad Book" by Warren F. Morgan,  published in 1953 is a nice story.  If it is considered by many to be "folk etymology" well....that's ok.

I'm a 3 rail ( high-rail) fan, and since toy trains are the stuff of childhood dreams , " folk etymology" seems to fit right in.

As a side note tho...

"Rails" seem to be a consideration today.

MTH listed their premiere line 3 rail locomotive products in 2 categories. "Scale" and "high-rail"

Here's a link

Scale or Hi-Rail Wheels - Which are Right for You? | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS
https://www.mthtrains.com/news/254

As always over time words change meanings.

I'm nostalgic.

Guys,

This is getting away from the facts which only adds to the urban legend sighted in the Warren F Morgan book.  Follow this link to learn about Lewis Hertz’s book, Riding the Tinplate Rails (I believe is the title), from the 1930s (not sure this date is correct, I can only find Jan 1, 1944) where the term was coined.

https://ogrforum.com/...m-hi-rail-came-to-be

It always implied more realism then straight tinplate, but not quite true scale.  Then see the Gargraves ad from the December 1946 Model Builder Magazine.  All long before 1953.

http://magazine.trainlife.com/...017/08/mb_194612.pdf

From CTT:  “Hi-rail: broadly speaking, hi-rail refers to modeling prototype railroading accurately using toy trains on a layout with realistic scenery.”

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

A horse is a horse, nez-pa? Early Modern Era horses were much the same as their Roman ancestors. So were the Roman workers, physically no different from their successors.

The societies and industries of the Renaissance copied much from the Romans, because it was what they had to work with and they knew it worked. The roads and river transport networks, aqueducts and city plans of the Romans were the highest development of pre-industrial technology.

There was a great deal of copying of Roman technology. Wellington and Marlborough, Napoleon and Blucher all deployed armies of cavalry and infantry using logistics and command structures which Caesar would have recognised.

So with industry and transport. Roman carts were much the same size as Early Modern ones, because that's the size between the shafts and that's what a horse can pull.

@Rockershovel posted:

A horse is a horse, nez-pa? Early Modern Era horses were much the same as their Roman ancestors. So were the Roman workers, physically no different from their successors.

The societies and industries of the Renaissance copied much from the Romans, because it was what they had to work with and they knew it worked. The roads and river transport networks, aqueducts and city plans of the Romans were the highest development of pre-industrial technology.

There was a great deal of copying of Roman technology. Wellington and Marlborough, Napoleon and Blucher all deployed armies of cavalry and infantry using logistics and command structures which Caesar would have recognised.

So with industry and transport. Roman carts were much the same size as Early Modern ones, because that's the size between the shafts and that's what a horse can pull.

From Snopes:

Aren't vehicles designed to run on roads and rails called Hi-rails?  Just sayin'

Another thing which hasn't had a mention, is that many early mineral tramways were built on the same inset footings as the plate ways which preceded them, for cost reasons

@justakid posted:

"O gauge scale"  in my youth, seemed to imply scale, realistic,  accurately modeled,  engines modeled in brass, tin, or cast metal, that ran on  3 or 2 rail ..flat topped solid rail track.

"High-rail" or  "3 rail" were the "toy" trains of my dad's era. Rounded 3 rail metal tubular track.

"O gauge" seemed to imply that train Model engines were more forgiving when it came to # of rivets or scale details. ( they were Reasonable representations of what ever model engine)

The origin of  the term "High-rail" in  "Model Railroad Book" by Warren F. Morgan,  published in 1953 is a nice story.  If it is considered by many to be "folk etymology" well....that's ok.

I'm a 3 rail ( high-rail) fan, and since toy trains are the stuff of childhood dreams , " folk etymology" seems to fit right in.

As a side note tho...

"Rails" seem to be a consideration today.

MTH listed their premiere line 3 rail locomotive products in 2 categories. "Scale" and "high-rail"

Here's a link

Scale or Hi-Rail Wheels - Which are Right for You? | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS
https://www.mthtrains.com/news/254

As always over time words change meanings.

I'm nostalgic.

I read it and still don't know the difference unless I have it right in front of me.

For example, I am interested in a new MTH release that is only available in Hi-Rail.  I asked in the thread started by the vendor here if it was available in Scale, but he never bothered to answer.

I won't spend that kind of money if I don't know what it will look like with my other cars, etc.  So I'll pass.

I "think" most of you buy "Scale"  is that right?  Is the body higher on the Hi-Rail than the Scale?

John

@CSXJOE posted:

Aren't vehicles designed to run on roads and rails called Hi-rails?  Just sayin'

I believe the is also true.  Google 'what does hi-rail mean'

"Hi-rail vehicles are vehicles designed to operate both on railways and on the road. They are usually maintenance vehicles working on the railway, where the area is too tight or there are no access roads for the railway they’re working on."

Tom Stoltz in Maine

@Craftech, in terms of MTH and the Hi-Rail vs Scale distinction you speak of only refers to the wheel sets and not the body or other remaining aspects. Just about all 3 rail track is "Hi-Rail" and the Hi-Rail wheels navigate these matching tracks, especially switches, much better than true scale flanges would. Much of these distinctions are all outlined in the "Scale or Hi-Rail Wheels - Which are Right for You? | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS" link posted above. You will find the scale wheels used much more often with 2 rail O gauge operations.

@Craftech posted:

I read it and still don't know the difference unless I have it right in front of me.

For example, I am interested in a new MTH release that is only available in Hi-Rail.  I asked in the thread started by the vendor here if it was available in Scale, but he never bothered to answer.

I won't spend that kind of money if I don't know what it will look like with my other cars, etc.  So I'll pass.

I "think" most of you buy "Scale"  is that right?  Is the body higher on the Hi-Rail than the Scale?

John

John,

It usually means the item will have Hi-rail wheels (larger flanges) rather then scale wheels with scale size flanges..  Hi-rail items most likely will not operate on scale track.  Scale track; you need scale wheels.

Seeing how this is a mostly Lionel forum, I would think very few buy scale.  Most are Hi-rail or tinplate (traditional, like 027).

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Rockershovel posted:

Another thing which hasn't had a mention, is that many early mineral tramways were built on the same inset footings as the plate ways which preceded them, for cost reasons

Mentioned in the Snopes article cited above with link to the article...

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Craftech posted:

I "think" most of you buy "Scale"  is that right?  Is the body higher on the Hi-Rail than the Scale?

Granted, there seems to be more posts on this forum pertaining to scale proportioned items. Speaking for myself, I don't need to post about problems with my trains, because I don't have any. Everything has worked for decades, and continues to do so. I can get parts. No DOA's or shelf queens.

As of a year ago, Ryan of Lionel said that sales of the traditional starter set line is what keeps Lionel in business.

The production numbers on many of these scale items are in the dozens or a few hundred, compared to production runs in the multiple thousands of the traditional sized items - at least in the past. Jerry Calabrese, when he was CEO at Lionel, said that 3,000 pieces is an exceptionally large and unusual production run for a scale sized locomotive. That same number is basically a limited run for a starter set.

In one single year alone of a multiple year production period, Lionel made over 180,000 of the non-scale 027 operating milk car. I highly doubt the entire scale product production numbers of any given year - all lumped together - comes anywhere close to that number. Of course, that was the glory postwar years. But even Richard Kughn (and later, echoed by Dick Maddox) said the 4-4-2 NYC Flyer steam set outsold every other train set combined. So, outside of track, was probably the best selling item in the Lionel catalog for a number of years.

So someone is still buying these sorts of products, even though you might not read about them on a daily basis here on this forum.

@Tom Stoltz posted:

John,

It usually means the item will have Hi-rail wheels (larger flanges) rather then scale wheels with scale size flanges..  Hi-rail items most likely will not operate on scale track.  Scale track; you need scale wheels.

Seeing how this is a mostly Lionel forum, I would think very few buy scale.  Most are Hi-rail or tinplate (traditional, like 027).

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Thanks Tom.  I have 027 and conventional so I may reconsider buying it after all.

John

@bmoran4 posted:

@Craftech,

You will find the scale wheels used much more often with 2 rail O gauge operations.

Thanks for that.  Much appreciated.

John