hobby for the better off?

I think it is worth it, if I hadn't given up on tank cars in this hobby a few years ago.

This was already covered on another thread:

https://ogrforum.com/t...-9495-for-a-tank-car

Is it really a 24K tank car?  It might be 18K.  I'd have it checked out.

Both wrong, 25,500

What is in it, 100 year Scotch or Bourbon, or caviar?

$99 for a tank car??...

certainly glad i chose a cheaper hobby!

Yep if these prices keep climbing then the laws of physics ( Not enough dough in the wallet ) will either force me down to HO or out of the hobby all together.

CofG

"The Right Way"

Just because I was curious, I compared the cost of an All Nation kit with trucks and couplers (about $11) to my salary when I started working as an engineer.   It took my about 2.76 hours to pay for such a kit. 

I compared my last salary before I retired with $99 for the Atlas car, and lo and behold, it would have taken me only 2.37 hours!    so the Atlas car cheaper today than those old kits were in the 60s.

I am retired now and that does affect income obviously, but it is an eye opener.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here but this little trip in the "way back machine" is rather interesting :

Not discounting the elevated cost of the new ~$100 25.5K tank car and all the bellyaching that went on over on the 3-Rail 25.5K tank car thread where it seemed most posters indicated that they would not be buying any of these new tank cars.  Consider history as a guide...  I would imagine this thread is probably similar to a thread that occurred back in 2008 when Atlas first introduced the new Trinity 5161 Covered Hopper with a 2-Rail MSRP of $84.95. 

http://www.atlaso.com/o5161hopper.htm

Remember at the time when the 5161 was first introduced, the economy was inarguably "in the crapper" right on the heels of the 2008 bust, and yet if you click on the YouTube link below from the 2010 Atlas TCA Show preview and jump to the 5:13 mark, you see the Atlas representative proudly hold up a new Atlas O Trinity 5161 Covered Hopper and you hear him say "this has been an absolute home run for the Atlas Model Railroad Company".  The MSRP of the new 25.5K tank cars is a 17% increase over the original Trinity 5161 MSRP that was first released over 5-years ago during an ailing economy.  Therefore, we seemed to have the money back then to buy all kinds of 5161s when jobs were being killed left and right and houses were being foreclosed, so if history is any guide, the $99 MSRP price tag is probably right in line with previous releases of similar quality cars, especially for an economy that is "supposedly" in much better shape than it was between 2008 - 2010.  Atlas may very well hit another home run with this model despite its ~$100 price.  We'll have to wait and see what the future says...

Skip to 5:13 mark

http://youtu.be/grifhg-ZXlA

Scott

Austin, TX

I love tank cars.  I have them all, from Lobaugh and Scale Craft, and prewar Lionel, through PSC.  The most fun are the wood blocks, which cost darn near nothing, except for trucks and couplers.  I'd post a photo, but you can see mine on the painting and blasting thread adjacent to this one.

The application of rational thought on these forums is not permitted!

My personal approach to the cost of this hobby is generally in keeping with why I model in O scale in the first place. I enjoy scratch building things, and this scale has always lent itself well to such venture. That being said, I make as much of my model railroad needs as is sensibly achievable, be it a structure, or a turnout, or refurbishing a piece of rolling stock from a train show or perhaps eBay. In the process I create individuality verses buying the same stuff everyone else buys. I save a nice amount of money in the process. When there is a purchase made of a manufactured item...a loco or any other specific item...money that has been saved for that eventuality is now available.

If one pursues this hobby strictly from the pages of a catalog at the prevailing price, it will indeed cost a pretty penny…and look like everyone else’s in the process.

Bob

Atlas-O appears to be walking a very fine line, indeed.  They are being highly selective with the products they choose to announce and produce -- which is a good thing for sure in this economy.  

Unfortunately, the niche Atlas-O carved for itself tends to catch the eye of the "scale" crowd who love highly detailed products, which are by definition labor-intensive to produce.  Hence the continued upward spiral of higher prices AND longer delivery times.    At a certain point, even folks blessed with the financial means will have their enthusiasm and patience taxed.

In a purely selfish way , I do hope the brand stays viable long enough for them to complete their California Zephyr offering.  I'm thinking it will still be another year or (likely) two before we see that happen.  And the overseas manufacturing landscape during that time frame doesn't appear to be the most stable.  Lots of land mines lurking and quicksand to walk through for sure, which will only serve to challenge the process.  I wish all the importers well.

David

I suspect that there are a healthy number of folks that consider this to be a "fortunate" decision.

Also, maybe a lot of folks have been spoiled by what were cheap and plentiful products for too long, and now reality has come to visit.  Don't you hate it when that happens?  Bet it'll leave a mark, too!

Too modern for me I think, but if it was within my time frame I could see buying 1 at that price.

Atlas seems to know what they're doing, albeit at a snails pace.  I'm still waiting for a single F3A phase 2 in Seaboard Air Line colors.

But my main reason for posting was so I could say...It is what it is (whatever the **** that means).  Been wanting to use that "blurbage" (another new word?!?!?) for a while now   Kinda goes with other useless blurbs like "just sayin" or "nuff said".

Now if I can use all 3 of those in one sentence I'll be back

Actually, the "mark" that concerns me most is we've very slowly evolved from a place where many folks could buy EVERYTHING they wanted (decades ago) to a place where more folks can only buy ONE item of many that they want.  (Look how many folks on the $94.95 tank car thread and other similar discussions indicate they might just buy "one" at that price...  or worse yet, some saying they won't buy ANY.  Truth be told... there's also only so much space any of us has to operate and display this stuff, then the rest sits in boxes.)

Nonetheless, the business model seems to have worked for Atlas-O thus far.  But that can only continue working as long as folks with financial means are an increasing population.  And while it's true more baby-boomers are becoming of age to use their discretionary funds as they see fit, there's also no denying that the number of years they can play with those discretionary funds is getting smaller than we'd like to see.   

Bottom line... as much as I love what Atlas-O stands for and the products they've delivered over the years, their business model is a very precarious one these days.  Watch this space carefully.

David

Really???  Have you seen Lionel's latest catalog(s)?  Auto-racks, 30K ethynol tankers, Tank Train tankers, etc...  They work for me just fine.

Since this thread is on the 2 rail forum, I feel obligated to state:

Lionel NEVER does 2 rail products!   

Their stuff can be converted, but with the price of trucks and couplers adding another 25 to the price, plus the work, the car has to be very nice.   And I find the "Built by Lionel" on all their stuff very disturbing.   It is fine for the toy stuff, but I don't like it on the scale stuff.

All that said, they did the PRR round roof boxcar, and I bought all 4.   Another issue, they usually only do or maybe 2 numbers while the 2 rail makers (like Atlas) usually do 4 or more.

I sniped one of these off eBay for under $10 (just to see if I could). Gave it to my buddy Peter. I don't even collect Tinplate!

Gilly

This is the best yardstick for comparing apples to apples that I have seen.  Forget about inflation tables and all that.  How many hours do you have to work to get an item today versus years ago?  If you're retired, you can add up your annual income and divide by 2080.  Great idea!

Actually a more accurate number would be 2000, not 2080. There are 10 major holidays (80 hours) that most businesses are closed for. I work in HR and hire freelancers on a regular basis so I'm used to making salary to wage comparisons. 

Trains are expensive but there are worse hobbies. If you think this hobby is expensive you should try bike racing. Not uncommon to show up to an amateur bike race and see people astride bikes costing $4000+ and that's not even close to being top of the line. The bikes the pros ride in the Tour de France cost $8000-$15000 and unlike car racing, you can actually go into your local bike shop and buy that exact same bike. Of course you'd have to be an idiot to want to do that...

Reality is there are few truly cheap hobbies. Most involve a pretty significant outlay of cash, especially in the beginning. In addition to trains I also build and paddle kayaks/paddleboards, build furniture, ride road bikes and run ultramarathons. Running is probably the cheapest hobby but even there I probably spend over $400/year on shoes, socks and other bits. Paddling is also cheap once you own a kayak or paddle board since the equipment never wears out and there are no usage fees as there are in golf or skiing. 

I just keep telling my wife to be happy I'm not into cars or boats.

Martin, yes... but I didn't see this topic was in the 2-rail forum... and that being the case, you were correct that Atlas-O is your obvious choice. 

David

On that cost comparison:  when we compare our purchasing power at the beginning of a career to the purchasing power after we have, say, 35 years of experience, aren't we forgetting that most start at a relatively low wage and wind up with a much better salary?

I never had a really good paying job, but I could buy a whole lot more "stuff" at the end of my career than I could at the beginning.

Generally, probably true.  I however took a 20% paycut 30 years to enter the career pathway to where I am today - that put a pretty hefty crimp in anything resembling disposable income.  It was another 20 year before I was earning a salary that was such that I had anything "disposable", and I had the security in wich to exercise that possibility. 

OTOH, at the end of career other expenses start to creep in, like healthcare for you and your family, and the possibility that your parents will also need your caring for them.....  

It's always something... 

like healthcare for you and your family

That is the one thing we're feeling now.  We have met our out-of-pocket expenses about mid-year for the last 10 years and it has wiped out a bunch of our savings, which wasn't all that much to begin with.  And with Federal BCBS premiums going up every year any increase hits hard.  Still I'm glad to be retired, even though I work 2 days/wk at a local golf course.  I don't think I could put in a 40 hour week anymore.

I never have been one to buy everything in sight and concentrating on Seaboard Air Line stuff keeps me from spending a bunch of $$$ as there's nothing much out there anyway.  With a dozen engines and 50 pieces of rolling stock I have more now than I can handle at one time on my small layout.  About the only thing I'd like to get a a single F3A to round out my diesel fleet.

"Not uncommon to show up to an amateur bike race and see people astride bikes costing $4000+"

That's only about three scale Lionel/MTH/3rd rail/Weaver locomotives.....

These unhappy threads show up from time to time...

Model railroading is an expensive hobby. Especially so if one desires a representative consist behind their dieasel or Big Boy. A while ago, whilst running my PRR J-1 with a bunch of PRR H-21 hoppers (plastic) and a brass cabin at AGHR, I realized I was looking at a train worth in excess of $2000. Didn't mention THAT to my better half.

O scale is more costly than, say, HO, of course, but think of the exclusivity.

If you don't gotta have it all now, there is always scratchbuilding. Or operating a shelf layout with a single engine and half a dozen cars.

I have yet to comprehend that "gotta have it all now" mentality anyway.  Maybe more model railroading and less collecting would solve some of the economic issues that concern some.....

Reading all the posts I reconsider. Living some on a SS check and my investments to pull me out of year end scrapes do to property taxes and time share fees I try and still buy a few models. I do plan on buying 2 or 3 of these 25.5s for an asphalt business planned on the layout. But 2 or  3 only. Not like the 15 trinity sweetner  tankers I got lost in a few years back and the 12 5161s. Keeping Atlas alive,eh.  Like others, the layout is only so big and these O scale crs eat a lot of space up. Bad that an engine might chase the last car around the layout by a few feet. That is why I never understood why Atlas produced the 33K tank. I alos don't see a need for any 86' cars. Now I am glad Atlas did these 25.5 even though they are $100 and  I am willing not to by a fleet of them. I got to act sane here.

quote:

Reality is there are few truly cheap hobbies.

Aw contra ire.  For several years, the majority of my train indulgence is within V scale. (V scale = Virtual scale, i.e. computer simulation.) 

Total investment including the core program and the optional auxiliary (tool) programs I wanted (CAD program for building models, a Digital Elevation Model manipulation program for creating DEM-rendered terrain, and a terrain painting program) came to about $400.  That was nearly 10 years ago.

In addition, all the commercially available "add-ons" (i.e. complete routes/layouts, engine and rolling stock packs, etc) that I have purchased is probably less than $300, and those were purchased early-on in my entrance into V scale. Since then, about all I've invested is my time as I create/build within the medium. 

Simply put: There is no cheaper way to indulge in the hobby of trains.

Below you'll see my V scale rendition of the town of St. Paul, Arkansas, circa 1893.  Bear in mind this is only one town on a route (layout) about 22 miles long. That "22 miles" figure represents virtual miles, i.e. real time/distance traveled as per the prototype.  Thus, it takes as long to go those virtual 22 miles as it did on the prototype running prototype speeds.

In regards to the picture: With the exception of the engine and rolling stock (those were built by a friend), I built and installed everything you see therein using the tools I mentioned above.  This is one route (layout) of several I've created... all with the same tools, hence initial outlay of cash.

Total cost for entire route of which St. Paul is pictured?  $0 dollars.  Only my time was in it, the tools having been purchased years ago.

Like I said: Cheap.

V scale is not for everyone... but it is an alternative.

Let's not get too hasty now!!!

Isn't sanity really just a one trick pony, anyway? I mean, all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy…ooh hoo hoo hoo…the sky's the limit!

When MSTS came out I was hooked with V Scale and really enjoyed it.  But the bugs when trying to build a route made it more of a hassle than fun.  But Microsoft was working on MSTS2 and it was looking to be awesome.  It got to be about 6 months from delivery and I bought a brand new gaming machine specifically for MSTS2.  And then about a week later they closed down the game studio.  I did try Rail Simulator afterwards but it had even more problems with route building than MSTS.  So that computer hasn't even been started in about 5 years.

So true!

Probably my most creative period in model railroading over the years was when I could least afford it.

Rusty

I think the trend will be "less is more" out of necessity..or the hobby will shrink to a few well heeled folks who cannot sustain the hobby by themselves.

Rising costs have to reach a point of entropy at some point and it seems to be slowly and steadily reaching this turning point, not that it will go away but it will change because it will have to.

Bruce

If the hobby of model trains becomes conflated with yet another form of consumerism, then yes it is expensive and it becomes one that only the affluent can afford.  I think that if you avoid that pitfall, it is actually a very reasonable hobby in terms of cost. 

Ebay has tons of rolling stock in new condition with boxes for $20 or less.  RMT was selling brand new ore cars for $10 apiece when you bought two.  Pat's trains was advertising brand new diesels (here on the ogr forum) for less than $100 in the past few weeks.  AMCDave just posted his discussion of the williams passenger cars he got for $10 apiece in a complete set.

This hobby is dirt cheap, if you want it to be.

Of course I realize the stuff I mentioned above is not for the 2-rail crowd.