Hot attic / plastic car storage????

My daughter's Lionel train set from 1982 (Thunder Freight set, die-cast engine and plastic rolling stock) was in the attic for at least 26-27 (or more) years. We had forgotten about it until we moved in 2013. Everything was just fine. Even the track was in pretty good shape. It was not at all rusted like I was expecting. The train itself was in good shape, no melted plastic and the engine still ran. We live in the greater Kansas City area with temps from -10 to +110 deg. F. with high humidity in the summer months.

I was really quite surprised that everything looked just about as it did when we stored it up there many years ago. The only thing that showed any signs of wear were the cardboard boxes the trains were in, including the set box. But, even those were not too bad. 

Certainly some plastic model RR equipment can stand the heat of an attic; I know of no PW Lionel, for example, that melted in the attic, and I grew up in/live on the Gulf Coast - the sub-tropics, essentially.

Having said that, I wouldn't even consider storing anything plastic and important in the attic. (And let's not forget the electronics that may be in these items.) It's a violent and stressful environment - plus, not all "plastics" are the same, to state the obvious. How your new Lionel/MTH/Atlas scale hopper will react to the heat may have little in common with cheapies from the PW or MPC eras.

Lots of materials variables, which themselves vary over time. I store only boxes there. 

Last time I responded to a question of this nature, some H'sA posted that I didn't know what I was talking about.  Over the last 70+ years, I have experienced plastic objects that have been affected by heat, and many that haven't.  D500 gives sound advice.  An attic can probably hit 150 on a hot sunny day, and, as he points out, electronics could have its life shortened.  It's not worth the risk.

The only train items that I store in my unheated attic space are stockpiles of old tubular track. I wouldn't gamble on putting any plastic or electronic hobby items up there if they have any significant value.

I should have added to my post above that I would have to think long and hard about putting an of my modern electronic trains purchased since I got back in the hobby in 2011 in the attic for storage. My experience above was only with an older conventional set and we never gave it much thought back when it was stored in the attic. Everything is now stored in the basement which is a conditioned space.

The last time I recall this subject coming up, many of the posters seemed to respond as if some of us were claiming it was desirable to store trains in a hot attic. Unfortunately, when you live in a house with no basement, a one-car garage already filled to capacity, and minimal closet space, the attic is pretty much what is left. The question I had in a long-ago thread was about packing materials, styrofoam box inserts, etc., under those conditions, rather than whether I should be storing the trains in the attic. Luckily, a few of the responses were actually helpful . 

I avoid storing plastic cars that nice in the attic.  I have stored metal Marx switches and junk cars saved for parts that do not show ill affects.

Any good train gear is stored in the garage in one long shelve close to the ceiling.  I store the cars and Plasticville etc. in apple boxes with lids gotten from asking for them from grocery stores.  The shelves are a couple of inches more from the ceiling than the height of an apple box. 

I live in the deep south, Baton Rouge, LA and it is 95 degrees today but never 100.

Charlie.

If there is anyway possible, hooking up a thermostat controlled attic fan, helps tremendously in protecting items stored in an attic. It also reduces cooling cost down stairs, and will even help asphalt shingles last many years longer. Some attics get so hot the shingles will actually blister and pop the stones off from being heated from the bottom side. If you examine your shingles and see pock marks where stones are missing, your attic is getting too hot.  

Not trains but I got my dad's old tackle box after he died.  I didn't open it for a year or 2 and when I did the plastic worms he had for bait had eaten/melted clean thru the thick plastic hinged trays they were in.  Dissimilar plastics do that from what I've read.  The tackle box was in the garage or shed (both had no temperature control).

My Premier F-3s shells cracked due to being store in extreme heat. There were several locomotives being stored but this is the only one to get damaged.

I'm thinking that prolonged high temperatures can degrade many plastics and make them more brittle, and not necessarily cause obvious visible changes - but they will be more vulnerable to damage. There must be many different plastic formulations with different properties. Time is the ultimate test of durability.

I had stored my trains in my attic,in N.J. for at least 25 to 30 years with lionel tubler track,when i got back into the hobby about 8 years ago,there was zero damage to any of my locos,or freight cars,& not one spot of rust on any of my track,then again there were no electronics in any of my rolling stock,or accessories & all of my locos ran just fine.

Not trains but I got my dad's old tackle box after he died.  I didn't open it for a year or 2 and when I did the plastic worms he had for bait had eaten/melted clean thru the thick plastic hinged trays they were in.  Dissimilar plastics do that from what I've read.  The tackle box was in the garage or shed (both had no temperature control).

There is a good chance those worms would have eaten through the trays no matter where the tackle box was stored. The chemicals that keep those worms soft probably attacked the plastic of the trays.
Turning to the world of trains:
The original Postwar Lionel 65 handcar had this problem. The chemicals that kept the men soft attacked the plastic handcar body.
During the modern era, there was an issue with the chemicals that kept the tires soft on some flatcar loads attaching the flatcar.

I avoid using any reproduction men on anything because I have had problems them attacking the plastic of whatever they are mounted on. In my experience, original men do not do this.

Bob Delbridge posted:

Not trains but I got my dad's old tackle box after he died.  I didn't open it for a year or 2 and when I did the plastic worms he had for bait had eaten/melted clean thru the thick plastic hinged trays they were in.  Dissimilar plastics do that from what I've read.  The tackle box was in the garage or shed (both had no temperature control).

   While heat sped it up, it was inevitable. Most boxes don't do that anymore, but reading a label or researching the product is the only way to go . At least buy a small "rubber- worm-safe" box to go in the big box . Plastic wrap or foil works as a barrier, but is a PITA.

 Ace posted:

I'm thinking that prolonged high temperatures can degrade many plastics and make them more brittle, and not necessarily cause obvious visible changes - but they will be more vulnerable to damage. There must be many different plastic formulations with different properties. Time is the ultimate test of durability.

Light is normally the biggest issue. Everything else can really vary. Heat may make some more dense, or tensile.

RJR posted:

Last time I responded to a question of this nature, some H'sA posted that I didn't know what I was talking about.  Over the last 70+ years, I have experienced plastic objects that have been affected by heat, and many that haven't.  D500 gives sound advice.  An attic can probably hit 150 on a hot sunny day, and, as he points out, electronics could have its life shortened.  It's not worth the risk.

  I don't see 150° being an issue on most electronics. Especially if not powered up and generating their own heat. But I'd be thinking about a brick house, no wood, and metal roofing at any higher temps anyhow 

    I'm not to sure of the melting temp on a Lionel, or common toy plastic though. That might be pushing it.

    The best storage for most things is , no light, static air and slow air temp and humidity changes. It varies how good an attic can be. In some areas the attics are sealed, others vented. Your lower levels normally have much more air flow and faster humidity changes.

   The attics large amount of exposed wood's  content also has an effect on smoothing humidity change in a static environment too. Wood wants to be wet more than metal, feed the moisture slow enough the the wood can drink it if the metals condensing dew point is not reached. It won't release the moisture till humidity and temp conditions just happen to be good for metal too. Win Win.

Attic heat has never affected any of my trains, and it'll get over 130 up there in July/Aug. Put an engine or car on the front or rear dash of a car in direct sunlight in the summer, though, and it will warp badly. Indirect heat, as long as it isn't a real high temperature, doesn't seem to be detrimental, that I've noticed.

However, I've found that if that really cheap, super-lightweight styrofoam comes in contact with plastic in a hot attic, the styrofoam will melt against the plastic and stick to it. It'll come off with water and a  little rubbing, but it's a  pain. This is not the type of styrofoam that is found in train boxes, though, which has never presented any problem.

Just reading this. I have a newer colonial with a 3rd story attic. It's finished and insulated. It's  hot but even without turning the HVAC air conditioning on it never gets hotter then 85-89 and Trains with electronics for the last 14 years have been ok no issues with TMCC or DCS.  Below is a picture of attic layout . Attic is 16'x40' @ widest. Now I need to get that layout built and be done with the current carpet central.

Being your up in the north east is very different than me. Postwar I would trust but modern I wouldn't. But bottom line if you have room I wouldn't do it. Where I live I definitely wouldn't. I have put them out in the unheated/ac garage for periods of time. I'm in S.C. and all has been fine

rtraincollector posted:

Being your up in the north east is very different than me. Postwar I would trust but modern I wouldn't. But bottom line if you have room I wouldn't do it. Where I live I definitely wouldn't. I have put them out in the unheated/ac garage for periods of time. I'm in S.C. and all has been fine

True. However the operative word here is Finished attic. In real heat wave I might leave AC on 82 :same in winter 10 below heats on 52.  It's all Regional, Northeast has extreme heat and cold..

I purchased some Weaver 4bay hoppers when they had their July good bye sale. Two of tbose hoppers were stored sideways in-between foam packing and the grab rails or stirrup steps melted 90 degrees down. No other damage to the car but with a hair gun, I have to carefully bend them backup.

Outside temps don't mean a thing.

Here in the Pacific NW, the summers rarely get to 80, much less often above that. A guy I know had some HO scale stuff in his attic melt like it'd been in an oven and he couldn't figure out how that'd happened. Another friend had some plastic airplane kits melt in the same manner in a storage shed. All in places where the ambient air temperatures never got all that high...

If you have to ask the answer is NO!

Any ambient temperature above 80 degrees is not good for O gauge trains, whether plastic, die-cast, or brass.  Normally I keep the train room thermostat at a maximum of 78 degrees in summer and 60 degrees in winter, when not in use.  This is not only because of the construction materials, but also to minimize adverse effects on electronics and track.  I have a lot of money invested in my trains and temperature control is a way to protect that investment.

I'm not trying to start a fight but my Attic 3rd floor Colonial works for me. No issues with any electronics over a decade of storage and use.  The attic is well insulated and has HVAC but I only run HVAC air system unless I'm up there or its extreme hot 95-100 or extreme cold below zero outdoors. Right now I'm considering replacing O/G scale layout ceiling outer track with newer standard gauge with electronics. In the previous post with the picture of my attic there is nothing above that but roof.

   Every single thing has an "optimum temp." too. I forget the exact term right now, but its the temp. the item "wants to be at" that would take the least amount of BTU change maintain.  That is normally under 85° for most things. A far reaching chain of thought for large hvac concerns, it has some footing in textile research and development too.

Seacoast,

    That ceiling track is yours? Its one of the best I've seen. A pal was interested in mine, and asked for advice. I sent him a lot of clips, that one too (I found it  elsewhere actually) and a note on it saying "this is how I'd do it now".

Nice space, nice window, nice track

Adriatic posted:

   Every single thing has an "optimum temp." too. I forget the exact term right now, but its the temp. the item "wants to be at" that would take the least amount of BTU change maintain.  That is normally under 85° for most things. A far reaching chain of thought for large hvac concerns, it has some footing in textile research and development too.

Seacoast,

    That ceiling track is yours? Its one of the best I've seen. A pal was interested in mine, and asked for advice. I sent him a lot of clips, that one too (I found it  elsewhere actually) and a note on it saying "this is how I'd do it now".

Nice space, nice window, nice track

Adriatic,

Thanks for the kind words. The ceiling layout is actually from Inter-rail out PA, a kit I installed. I don't now if the company is still in business. I bought the kit thru Lantz's hobby shop out of Horsehead NY back in the day.

The toughest part besides putting the kit together was getting it plumed lined up from the floor to the ceiling. It could of used more side support. After using it for a dozen years it's held up fine as long as a kid or big kid doesnt pull it down. I used  G scale Aristo craft track on the Outter loop and O gargraves plastic tie phantom track for the inside. It's conventionally powered although I could easily add TMCC OR DCC for the G scale.  I'm thinking I might change it up and switch out the G for a standard gauge loop.

In some areas the attics are sealed, others vented.

Here in NYS, unfinished attics are vented. The idea of the venting is to allow excess heat and moisture to escape. My attic is vented, but it still gets hotter than the outside ambient temperature in the summer.  (Hope to improve things this summer). Those outside summer temps rarely go above 95.
I have stored overflow trains, train parts and my kids toys up there for years at a time with no ill effect. Not a drop of rust on any of the track. Nothing melted or warped.
I recently brought out two gaming systems, with games that were up there. Both are working fine.

In my last home, the previous owner did cover up the gable vents. We uncovered them.

My wife watches a lot of the house hunting, building and remodeling shows. On one show that takes place in Alaska, they made a point to mention that roof venting is very important.
Where is it considered desirable to seal an attic?

Until I re-enter the hobby about 7 years ago my childhood post war Lionel trains were stored in the attic of our Carmel, NY home. After being up there for appoximately 15 years they were exactly as they were when I first put them there. No warping, melting or rust. As previously stated, attics here are vented by gable, peak and soffett vents to let out excess heat and moisture.

Mike

Seems the bottom line answer to the original post is:  It's your stuff.  You take your chances and your risks,  Like the rest of life, nothing is certain except death and taxes.

C W Burfle posted:

In some areas the attics are sealed, others vented.

Here in NYS, unfinished attics are vented ... My wife watches a lot of the house hunting, building and remodeling shows. On one show that takes place in Alaska, they made a point to mention that roof venting is very important.
Where is it considered desirable to seal an attic?

Attics are supposed to be vented to prevent condensation build-up in the insulation. Some folks might be tempted to seal their attic to cut down on heat loss in the winter. Many people will block their crawl space vents in the winter to cut down on heat loss, and foam blocks are made for this purpose. You can get away with it for one season but the blocks are not supposed to be left in place all year.

Some quick internet research tells me that there are newer ideas about sealed attics for energy conservation, but it requires the attic to be very thoroughly sealed to prevent moisture infiltration. News to me, and perhaps not generally accepted. I think it is only practical on new construction.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/f...nedattics_011713.pdf

http://buildingscience.com/doc...in-hot-climates/view

http://www.creativeconservatio...-better-attic-system

It might be possible to build your own insulated storage space in an attic if you understand building principles and proper application of vapor barriers. It could just be a large boxed-in section that is insulated from the rest of the attic. It should be under the roof and not blocking venting for the rest of the attic.

Thank you for those links.

Earlier I mentioned that I am looking into improving the insulation in my attic. My contractor mentioned looking into insulation on the back side of the roof, which would require a sealed attic. It is not commonly done in my area.

Nor in VA.  I would get several opinions on the wisdom of that.  Would sheathing get too hot?  What about any water that gets thru shingles?

RJR posted:

Nor in VA.  I would get several opinions on the wisdom of that.  Would sheathing get too hot?  What about any water that gets thru shingles?

Those are good questions and yes, additional opinions would be advisable. Insulation applied directly under the roof should still have an air space above for venting (is what I learned). Sealed attics seem to be a newer idea not universally accepted and perhaps only practical with new construction to do it right.

In my last neighborhood (30 years ago), many of the folks had no effective venting in their attics.  I was in some of the attics where it was actually raining from condensation, and it turned things into a MESS!  Unless you're doing what Ace describes about sealing and insulating the attic properly, venting is a must!  I had full length soffit vents with two attic fans, and I never had any issues with condensation.  My current house, 27 years old, has three roof mounted attic fans with both temperature and humidity controls to run when the moisture level gets too high or the temperature exceeds 110F.  There's never been an issue with stuff getting damaged up there, but I wouldn't put plastic trains up there anyway.

I'll tell you this, here in North West Florida on a hot summer day it gets like a million degrees in the attic.  I would never put my expensive trains in the attic.  Maybe for those of you that live in cooler climates, but not here in the south land.

I would add that often bugs will be present in the attic, and damage boxes.

It's not very likely that I will go for the sealed attic system that my contractor mentioned, but I am willing to listen to what his subcontractor has to say.
My previous home had a gable exhaust fan with both temperature and humidity controls to run it.
My current home has a gable exhaust fan with a temperature control only.
But when we replaced our roof in 2001, we had a ridge vent installed, along with an increased number of soffit vents to feed it. No need for the fan after that.

If we do not go for the sealed attic system, we are going to have our contractor redo our soffits to install a continuous soffit vent.

The whole idea of sealing the attic came from the request for a quote to improve the insulation at the ceiling.

To keep this more or less on topic, as I posted earlier, Nothing we have placed in our attic has been damaged by heat, cold, humidity, or insects / vermin.