Hot Water - Question

Steve,

 

Sure glad you ask!!!!  I noticed that "other site" thread on "Trash in the Firebox", and there are a few individuals that simply don't know what the devil they are talking about. For that Mr. Mitchell to state that the big locomotives all use #2 diesel fuel right from the diesel servicing facilities, is totally incorrect. Except in dire emergencies, when the fuel oil truck broke down or simply didn't show up, we have NEVER used #2 diesel fuel in 4449. That goes all the way back to the Freedom Train days. Long before re-claimed waste oil was available, 4449, 844, 3985, Frisco 1522, and T&P 610 all used #5 "black power plant oil", and sometimes #6 in a pinch. The UP steam operation previously purchased #5 from the Sinclair Refinery, west of Cheyenne in Sinclair, Wyo.. Once re-claimed waste oil became available, some i5 or more years ago, UP stopped using the crap from Sinclair and 844 & 3985 would up firing much easier and cleaner. 

 

Out in the Pacific Northwest, we previously used PS300, from the marine industry there in Portland, in 4449. Again, once re-claimed waste oil (they call it "bus barn heating oil") became available, we have used nothing but that product for more than 15 years.

 

Has a side note, many people might be familiar with the famous "side-by-side" run on Cajon Pass, back in 1989, with 844 and 4449, ascending the 2+% grade. Videos and photos show 4449 producing huge quantities of smoke on that run. Why?  Well, the truck load of special low sulfur, "California approved, high BTU fuel" didn't show up prior to our departure from LAUPT. Since we were doing that operation for the Southern Pacific RR, upon arrival at Colton, CA for our overnight layover, the SP was more than happy to provide ANYTHING we needed or requested. Thus, we moved 4449 right into the big diesel fueling facility, in order to take on over 4500 gallons of "fuel". I discussed the situation with the General Supervisor, explaining that these big, high horse power steam locomotives really don't perform very well trying to burn #2 diesel fuel, especial on such a grade as Cajon. I thus asks him if there was any used diesel engine lube oil available, that they need to "get rid of". His response was , "No problem, we'll handle it."

 

Shortly, the laborers appeared, and dragged two large hoses up on top of the tender, one for diesel fuel and one for lube oil. I opened the hatch to the fuel bunker, and told them to "Put them right in there.", while I used the long tank dip-stick to monitor how full we were getting. It didn't take long for me realize that they were giving us BRAN NEW LUBE OIL, and not used oil!  At any rate, we took about 2500 gallons of #2 diesel, and some 1500 to 2000 gallons of nice new lube oil.

 

The next day, ascending the grade, Fireman George Lavacot quickly discovered that the mixture sure seemed to burn hot, be required the flues to be sanded out about every 4 or 5 minutes. As the "3rd Man in the cab", I was naturally tapped as the "saner outer". Thus, 4449 produce pretty heavy smoke ascending Cajon Pass, due to the constant sand of the flues, but George was able to maintain 300psi pretty easily with the Worthington Feedwater System dialed up quite high.

 

 

Maybe you can clear up those guys over on that "other site".

Thanks for the education, Hot!

Glad to help. I should point out however, that the current manager of the UP Steam Shop, DID "change" to using #2 diesel fuel in 844 during either 2012 or 2013. As a result of uneven heating, many of the staybolts began weeping, and subsequent "repairs" had to be made to the firebox side sheets and mud ring areas.

Im jealous, I'd love to be any guy on the operating end of a steam loco.

Grand Canyon Railroad, when their steam was running, was know to use reclaimed peanut oil from discarded French Fry  cooking oil.  Smelled pretty good.  

 

WOW, some of the synthetic oil, like I use in my Prius, are close to $8 per quart.

2000 gallons of lube oil/8000 quarts X, lets say, $4 per quart.  That's a $32,000 fill up.   plus the cost of sand.  Glad it ran well.   

 

How do you go from burning #5 oil to #2 oil with out changing the burner nozzles?

There are no "nozzles". The burner is about 4 inches wide, with a slot opening at the bottom where the steam exits and atomizes the oil as it flows out of the burner opening above the atomizer. For short periods we can burn just about anything that is flammable, except gasoline. 

There are also multi-fuel wheeled vehicles which can do this. There was a 2 1/2 ton truck in the M-35 series for the military which would burn darned near anything you dumped into it. I know a guy who has a surplused M-35A2 and he uses expended cooking oil in it all the time when going to military vehicle collector events and car shows...

Out two little narrow gauge steamers run on used motor oil and have for years. At first they got it free from the gas stations. The stations loved it because they didn't have to pay to get rid of it. Not a cheap thing on a island. Now they do pay but not much. Don

I had no idea that the Lahaina, Kaanapali and Pacific burned grease when they were still running steam. My wife and I rode that line (behind that very locomotive, actually) when we did our Hawaii cruise in 2003. So glad we did it now, given the current state of that RR...

The 1880 Train in Hill City, SD  (a 2-6-6-2) runs on used motor oil.  Can't use coal because it runs through national forest.

 

 

Kent in SD

The railroad should be running by Christmas. Cross our fingers. Don

Kent, what part of South Dakota you in? im building a layout in Clark

 

 

Hot Water,

 

I have read accounts of operating large superpower steam locomotives where it was mentioned that running for prolonged periods with high cutoff settings could cause damage to the valves and cylinders because the high heat would break down the lubricating oil.  Lubricating oil technology has developed quite a bit since the late steam era and now there are full synthetics capable of withstanding much higher temperatures without breaking down in internal combustion engines.  Have synthetic lubricants been tried in steam locomotives in the last few decades to overcome the limitations of conventional oils when operated with highly superheated steam and long valve cutoffs?

 

I appreciate your response.

 

Scott Griggs

Louisville, KY

Technology hasn't changed that much. Steam cylinder oil--even for modern super-power engines--is still made with animal tallow, just like it was 150 years ago. Tallow emulsifies in the heat, and coats the moving part with a think cream-like film.

 

Green Velvet Oils

Yes, we have been using an EXXON product, Selestic 1500, for some 30 years, or more (maybe even back to the Freedom Train Days). The UP steam program, prior to December 2010, was also using the same product, which is/was a full synthetic, high temperature steam oil (Valve oil to railroaders).  Eventually, EXXON stopped making it, but allowed us, and the UP, to have the formulation in order to have it reproduced by a smaller petroleum supply company. We have many, many, many 55 gallon drums of the stuff stashed away in a safe place.

 

Back in the regular steam days, valve oil was essentially an animal fat (tallow) based product and was still pretty capable of lubricating valves and pistons on even the highest HP steam locomotives, having very high temperature superheated steam, i.e. well over 600 degrees at the valves (assuming the Engineer is using the proper cutoff).