Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
What about the heat when locomotives ran in long tunnels? There is nowhere for the heat and humidity to go. SP Donner and Southern pre daylighted "Rat Hole" must have been terrible.
Dominic Mazoch posted:What about the heat when locomotives ran in long tunnels?
I can tell you from experience that, on the second locomotive of a doubleheader, it gets over 200 degrees in the cad, even with an "all weather cab" all closed up! Luckily, we were issued air breather packs, but back in the old days, that is why the SP developed the cab forward concept for all the snow sheds & tunnels on Donner Pass and the Cascade main lines.
There is nowhere for the heat and humidity to go. SP Donner and Southern pre daylighted "Rat Hole" must have been terrible.
Standing around between runs was always difficult. You could stay in the cab next to the firebox, with the steam leaking from various points adding to the misery, but at least there was a roof over your head; or, you could step off the engine, and your head would absolutely bake under the scorching sun. Sitting under the shadow of a box car or caboose would help.
The amount of heat these things put out can be amazing. On one run, I was deadheading in the cab, standing behind the fire door. I was wearing the usual bib overalls. My steel-toed shoes would heat up to painful levels. The run was about an hour long.
At the end of the day, I wandered over to my car to head home. I reached into the front pocket of my bibs to get my car keys. I fished out the ignition key and noticed it felt strange as I held it: The plastic bow (the part of the key you turn) had completely deformed while it was in my pocket from the heat coming off the fire door.
jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Not on the railroad, they didn't.
smd4 posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Not on the railroad, they didn't.
Actually you would be surprised how much many of those "old head railroaders" drank, back in the day, and it wasn't just beer either.
Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Not on the railroad, they didn't.
Actually you would be surprised how much many of those "old head railroaders" drank, back in the day, and it wasn't just beer either.
While on the job?
smd4 posted:Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Not on the railroad, they didn't.
Actually you would be surprised how much many of those "old head railroaders" drank, back in the day, and it wasn't just beer either.
While on the job?
Yes, some of them carried small flasks in the overall jacket pockets. One of the Engineers I knew quite well, on the DL&W, back in the mid 1950s, always carried his cold, black coffee in a plain clear glass pint whiskey bottle, which fit perfectly into the left pocket of his jacket. I used to kid him about it, and how many times he could have been turned for "drinking on the job". He allowed that nobody gave a darn back in those days, and besides the Road Foreman of Engines knew what he was doing anyway (he was one of the most senior and BEST Engineers on the DL&W between Hoboken and Scranton, PA). Some of the other guys, however that carried the real thing, didn't seem to care either. Railroading was much different, back before about 1960.
Drinking on the job was not near as serious a violation than it is today. At my work they just started getting serious about drinking on the job in the mid-‘70’s.
Fellow workers took care of those that over did it.
My first year working at the power plant was 1971. I saw no beer being drank, but whiskey and vodka did flow. December was almost more party than work. The stories I could tell, no one born after the mid-‘50’s would believe.
scott5011 posted:They were REAL MEN!! They had RESPONSIBILITIES and they took care of them. Almost all had a well defined sense of right and wrong. They were tough as nails and could kick the living crap out of what seems to pass for a man these days! Uh-oh there I go again. Have a great weekend, Scott.
Seriously? I would be really careful about labelling anyone as "real men" back then or today, the reality is they were human beings, some of them no doubt were exemplary beings, others very likely could be total louts who went home and beat their wives and kids. Likewise, there were a lot of responsible people driving those trains, but there also were yahoos who did stupid things and ended up wrecking trains and wounding and killing people. How you know that 'almost all" had a well defined sense of right and wrong I don't know, but I don't think driving a train or living in a particular era made anyone more or less righteous. Yes, people working back then faced a lot we don't today, air conditioning only became common in offices for example when they had equipment that needed cooling, and 'back in the day' the comfort level of employees didn't count for much, people wore layers of formal clothing in the most brutal weather. I think it took a very tough person (or desperate person) to survive in a lot of jobs, that much I do agree, working for the railroads or a miner or working for a steel mill before the age of safety regulations and work rules was brutal (given that the owners of those business pretty much viewed their workers as less valuable then the animals they used; the head of one steel mill, when asked about the horrible conditions and workers being killed and maimed, said something (an almost direct quote) "I don't worry about it much, after all, those people don't feel pain" (the 'those people' was likely referring to what the managers called 'Hungarians', who were besides Hungarian Polish, Russian, Czech, Lithuanian, others from central and eastern europe who ended up woirking in the mills and mines.
As far as the guys running the trains go, I think they do what workers do and have done for a long time, curse the weather, curse the people who ran the railroad, probably cursed the engine for good measure, and got through the day
jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Or maybe smarter, those "old timers" you talk about often ended up disabled or killed , often died young, and their families were left without much of anything (if you think the railroads or the mills and mines cared about the families of those who died, when the father died working there, either they expected one of the sons to take over for the old man or sent a letter telling the family to get out of the company housing, since the husband had died, and oh, yes, that they owed X to the company store)..compassion wasn't a strong suit among those who ran those companies back then, that is for sure. I don't think people today are 'wimps' compared to the people back then, I think it is that over time people wanted better for their kids and grandkids and in many cases got what they wished for, I doubt gramps working in the steel mill or the mine or running a steam engine would be angry that their descendants don't have to face that, I think they would be happy that if their grandson or great granddaughter became a locomotive engineer they didn't have to face the brutal conditions he did. From personal experience, my dad was a WWII combat veteran, fought through the bulge, and he said that in talking to most of the guys in his unit, to a man they all said they hoped and wished fervently that their kids never had to face what they did, much the same way I can only hope my son and future generations can have it better than we did.
bigkid posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Or maybe smarter, those "old timers" you talk about often ended up disabled or killed ,
Where did come up with those statistics?
often died young, and their families were left without much of anything
Baloney!!!!! Haven't you ever heard of Railroad Retirement?
(if you think the railroads or the mills and mines cared about the families of those who died, when the father died working there, either they expected one of the sons to take over for the old man or sent a letter telling the family to get out of the company housing, since the husband had died, and oh, yes, that they owed X to the company store)..compassion wasn't a strong suit among those who ran those companies back then, that is for sure.
Since this is a railroad related discussion, specifically about summer heat in steam locomotives, all your ranting about mines and steel mills is irrelevant as part of this discussion.
I don't think people today are 'wimps' compared to the people back then,
Well I sure do! The young people today are all about self gratification, and everyone receives an "award" or "trophy" just for participating.
I think it is that over time people wanted better for their kids and grandkids and in many cases got what they wished for, I doubt gramps working in the steel mill or the mine or running a steam engine would be angry that their descendants don't have to face that, I think they would be happy that if their grandson or great granddaughter became a locomotive engineer they didn't have to face the brutal conditions he did. From personal experience, my dad was a WWII combat veteran, fought through the bulge, and he said that in talking to most of the guys in his unit, to a man they all said they hoped and wished fervently that their kids never had to face what they did, much the same way I can only hope my son and future generations can have it better than we did.
"Well I sure do! The young people today are all about self gratification, and everyone receives an "award" or "trophy" just for participating. "
If you truly believe this nonsense, I would suggest you know very little from personal experience about people in their 20s and their 30s. This calumny is the sort of bizarre, inappropriate, pejorative generalization that is socially corrosive and leads to older folks like you (and me) being characterized as clueless curmudgeons well past their prime .
Hot Water posted:bigkid posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Or maybe smarter, those "old timers" you talk about often ended up disabled or killed ,
Where did come up with those statistics?
often died young, and their families were left without much of anything
Baloney!!!!! Haven't you ever heard of Railroad Retirement?
(if you think the railroads or the mills and mines cared about the families of those who died, when the father died working there, either they expected one of the sons to take over for the old man or sent a letter telling the family to get out of the company housing, since the husband had died, and oh, yes, that they owed X to the company store)..compassion wasn't a strong suit among those who ran those companies back then, that is for sure.
Since this is a railroad related discussion, specifically about summer heat in steam locomotives, all your ranting about mines and steel mills is irrelevant as part of this discussion.
I don't think people today are 'wimps' compared to the people back then,
Well I sure do! The young people today are all about self gratification, and everyone receives an "award" or "trophy" just for participating.
I think it is that over time people wanted better for their kids and grandkids and in many cases got what they wished for, I doubt gramps working in the steel mill or the mine or running a steam engine would be angry that their descendants don't have to face that, I think they would be happy that if their grandson or great granddaughter became a locomotive engineer they didn't have to face the brutal conditions he did. From personal experience, my dad was a WWII combat veteran, fought through the bulge, and he said that in talking to most of the guys in his unit, to a man they all said they hoped and wished fervently that their kids never had to face what they did, much the same way I can only hope my son and future generations can have it better than we did.
I don't have the statistics handing, but in the days before federal regulations and things like workers compensation, the lives of people working on the railroad were very, very different than they were later. For example air brakes and the knuckle coupler became federal law in 1890, and before then railroad men faced being crushed by trains, or killed in wrecks. Not to mention that they likely were exposed to toxic materials, when they breathed in coal ash from the engine running, they were breathing in things like sulfur dioxide, carbon monoxide, and in many cases heavy metals like mercury and cadmium.
https://web.stanford.edu/group...n/site/pub.php?id=65 gives one statistic that is interesting, in 1894 one in 156 railroad workers was killed on the job.
From a book called "Death Rode the rails" here are some statistics:
-from 1882 to 1912 48 percent of all fatalities were from railroad accidents (source was the records of the Railroad brotherhoods). Next largest was typhoid fever
-The number of deaths was 12,000 a year and estimates are that the serious injury rate was many times that.
As far as "railroad retirement" goes, things like life insurance, workmen's compensation and the like came about much later, most of that happened in the 1930's with the strengthening of unions and labor regulations, in earlier eras that didn't exist. The Brotherhoods did later on have insurance funds, but that was not the kind of insurance that later would be there later from the employer. The stats above on death and accidents goes through 1912.
I don't know if there are stats on when a typical railroad person died, but I can tell you that life expectancy back then was much less than today, plus if guys working on the railroad got sick and died from the crap they breathed in the form of cancer, it wouldn't be covered. I will also add that if the 'old timers' were drinking like that, it is likely they did so to help escape the misery of the job as it existed.
-Post 1912, by the time 1940 hit death and accident rates were down like 80%, and it was government regulation as well as the strength of organized labor that caused this.
As far as bringing up other jobs, like miners and steel workers, other people mentioned them in their posts. The other reason is it is nostalgia to think that those that ran the railroads had any more concern for their workers then those who ran the mills or mines did, to them labor was easily replaced and was valued a lot less than mules or horses they used, or the equipment men worked on. They would be upset if a steam engine went off the tracks and was destroyed then about the train crew that died on it, they likely would curse the workers and mourn the engine and the lost money, it is the way it was.
As far as young people all being wimps who all got trophies for participating, I have heard it all, the people who say they were bullied in school and it was a 'character building thing', those who said how tough they had it and the kids today are all vapid, whiny, spoiled kids (funny to hear members of the baby boom saying that, when they were criticized by their elders for all being coddled and spoiled *lol*), it is just people looking back to a golden age that had its warts, and also assuming that somehow they were great and the current generation stinks, and it just isn't true.
Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Not on the railroad, they didn't.
Actually you would be surprised how much many of those "old head railroaders" drank, back in the day, and it wasn't just beer either.
While on the job?
Yes, some of them carried small flasks in the overall jacket pockets. One of the Engineers I knew quite well, on the DL&W, back in the mid 1950s, always carried his cold, black coffee in a plain clear glass pint whiskey bottle, which fit perfectly into the left pocket of his jacket. I used to kid him about it, and how many times he could have been turned for "drinking on the job". He allowed that nobody gave a darn back in those days, and besides the Road Foreman of Engines knew what he was doing anyway (he was one of the most senior and BEST Engineers on the DL&W between Hoboken and Scranton, PA). Some of the other guys, however that carried the real thing, didn't seem to care either. Railroading was much different, back before about 1960.
Believe it Steve!
Heck, I knew one conductor that shared his beer with the trainmaster!
I would agree that the generational discussion is generally incorrect in many of these statements. Each generation faces a different set of challenges and always will. The skill level required for any true career related job is immense in any era. It's not harder or easier, it's just different. Career paths with less physical labor often demand much more mental labor. Both create fatigue. The "real men" argument is superfluous to the real conversation.
Why not simply stick to the topic? The actual topic is interesting and informative. The side bar garbage? Not so much so.
And, since this is about heat. The diesels were a sauna too. One about did me in one day!
Did you ever see those "All weather windows" installed over the normal window? The first thing one did in the summer was to give those windows (plexiglass) a swift kick so you could get some air into the cab!
Big Jim posted:Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:Hot Water posted:smd4 posted:jim pastorius posted:Yes, I agree with you. People are wimps today. Plus, the old guys drank lots of beer.
Not on the railroad, they didn't.
Actually you would be surprised how much many of those "old head railroaders" drank, back in the day, and it wasn't just beer either.
While on the job?
Yes, some of them carried small flasks in the overall jacket pockets. One of the Engineers I knew quite well, on the DL&W, back in the mid 1950s, always carried his cold, black coffee in a plain clear glass pint whiskey bottle, which fit perfectly into the left pocket of his jacket. I used to kid him about it, and how many times he could have been turned for "drinking on the job". He allowed that nobody gave a darn back in those days, and besides the Road Foreman of Engines knew what he was doing anyway (he was one of the most senior and BEST Engineers on the DL&W between Hoboken and Scranton, PA). Some of the other guys, however that carried the real thing, didn't seem to care either. Railroading was much different, back before about 1960.
Believe it Steve!
Heck, I knew one conductor that shared his beer with the trainmaster!
Ok, ok. Funny! Sounds like my kind of crew.
jim pastorius posted:I drove across the good ole US of A. in the summer and through New Mexico and Arizona it was HOT. Dry or otherwise. Humidity is stifling too but we have endured over the years. People are spoiled today.
Air Conditioning, the Great Spoiler, but I'll take it.
It is not a question of "spoiling". Extreme heat results in a degradation of alertness and judgement in the cab, and contributes to fatigue. The introduction of and upkeep of air conditioning contributes to alertness and enhanced safety.
History revision: I can see it now...
”The BLE and BLF&E unions unite in arbitration to require all railroad owners to provide Air Conditioning in the cabs of all steam locomotives, sighting personnel safety concerns.”
TM Terry posted:History revision: I can see it now...
”The BLE and BLF&E unions unite in arbitration to require all railroad owners to provide Air Conditioing in the cabs of all steam locomotives, sighting personnel safety concerns.”
They did have A/C: Model number WO-40. (Windows open @ 40 mph.) 
Rusty
Landsteiner posted:"Well I sure do! The young people today are all about self gratification, and everyone receives an "award" or "trophy" just for participating. "
If you truly believe this nonsense, I would suggest you know very little from personal experience about people in their 20s and their 30s. This calumny is the sort of bizarre, inappropriate, pejorative generalization that is socially corrosive and leads to older folks like you (and me) being characterized as clueless curmudgeons well past their prime
I happen to know a great deal about people in that age group from extensive personal experience, and the characterization is broadly accurate. There are always exceptions, but the general run fill the description pretty well.
That said, I don't believe that the description is limited just to that age group, at least the portion concerning self-gratification.
Tommy posted:It is not a question of "spoiling". Extreme heat results in a degradation of alertness and judgement in the cab, and contributes to fatigue. The introduction of and upkeep of air conditioning contributes to alertness and enhanced safety.
With the advent of the wide body cab, air conditioning is almost mandatory. You just can't get enough air flowing into the cab to stay at a safe level of alertness!
That said, the company didn't care about the comfort of the crews (actually stated by a Div. Supt.!!!), witness the N&W "Toad Stool" seats. Thank goodness for "Computerization" and the need to keep them cool in order for the unit to function!!!
Big Jim posted:Tommy posted:It is not a question of "spoiling". Extreme heat results in a degradation of alertness and judgement in the cab, and contributes to fatigue. The introduction of and upkeep of air conditioning contributes to alertness and enhanced safety.
With the advent of the wide body cab, air conditioning is almost mandatory. You just can't get enough air flowing into the cab to stay at a safe level of alertness!
That said, the company didn't care about the comfort of the crews (actually stated by a Div. Supt.!!!), witness the N&W "Toad Stool" seats. Thank goodness for "Computerization" and the need to keep them cool in order for the unit to function!!!
Speaking of seats, do you remember those God-awful seats on the conductor’s side of the early D9-40CW’s? No adjustment, hardly any padding, etc.
In the good old days.....wish I could ask my great grandfather what he did on the B&O.
BUT...I will say during my two years on the Carowinds & Carolina RR 1974-75 we sweat a LOT! High 90's with 100% humidity was a bear....but I was young and I was running a real steam loco so who cared!!! Lots of water was the main defense.....
