How do I attach my TVS,and circuit breakers to my layout?

One way is shown here

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=486&categoryId=

 

Dale H

Ed, your link don't work, here a link to the  main page

 

http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/products.htm

Thanks guys ,I sure like  the Scots unit,it looks super simple.

I think Dale Manquen evaluated the Scotts TVS and said they did not offer adequate protection. I could be wrong but that was my impression.

 

Dale H

 

Indeed, the unit I evaluated a few years ago was quite inferior to the $.50 1500 watt TVS units we recommend here on the Forum.  The device was not designed for train use.  I have not seen a recent unit, but when I talked with Scott and his supplier, they didn't have a clue!

 

Sometimes thinking you are protected when you really aren't is much worse that knowing you are unprotected.

Dale Manquen,where is the best place to buy those tvs from.What type tvs should I purchase,I went to a local specialized electronic parts store,he had no clue on the type for me to use.He had a whole bunch to choose from in his catalog.That's when I decided to leave,play it safe,and go on recommendations from ogr forum members,recommendations on fast acting fuses world also be great also.

 

Thanks again,

Bryan

 

I use the 1.5KE36CA from Digikey.

Thanks John,any recommendations on fuses?

Well, I'd probably go with circuit breakers, but they're not as fast as fuses.  With the TIU in the mix, I have the electronic circuit breaker part covered.  For a TMCC-only track, I have a couple of the TMCC Direct Lockon boxes to provide short protection.

The following definitive note regarding Transient Voltage Suppressors[TVS] is in fairly straightforward language may be helpful for those planning to use them.

In addition to Digikey which John mentioned, TVS is available from Mouser Electronics, ALLied and others. Mouser's part/order number is 576-1.5KE36CA and cost $0.33 each for 10 or $0.31 for 100 units. [[800]-346-6873

Good price from Mouser.  You do have to factor in that shipping from Digikey will be about $2.50 on ten of them and shipping from Mouser starts at $6.

 

Mouser has excellent prices on many items, but I normally wait for a bigger order to minimize the shipping hit.

Thanks Dale

I just emailed Scott regarding Dale Manquen's comment on the TVS units. Scott replied the early unis (DTK-2 and DTK-4) were discontinued and replaced with the TVS-4 some time ago. Dale then emailed an endorsement of Scott's new units.

 

Neil    

I only examined the first unit.  I have not seen anything since, and I don't recall any endorsement.  I would like to see a copy of that email.  (I could be wrong.  Time dulls the memory...)

The basic problem was that the manufacturer was making telecom equipment where there is a real "Ground" against which the incoming data lines can be clamped.  No such Ground exists in our train layouts.  We need to clamp between the Common and Center Rail.  A TVS connected directly across those terminals does the job nicely.

 

When I spoke with Scott's supplier, he didn't grasp this concept.

Dale:

Thank you for your explanation regarding the TVS setup. That clears up some of the gray areas!

 

Neil

  

Can you buy both TVS and circuit breakers at either Mouser or Digikey? I want

to place an order this afternoon and i would like to use just one supplier for all

my needs.

 

Thanks Bryan

The 10 amp rated Potter-Brumfield breaker shown above came from Mouser Electronics[as well as my TVS order]. I don't recall exactly but the breakers were less than $5 each.

Thanks Dewey.

 

Dewey do you have a part number for the circuit breakers from mouser?

There you go, right from the part picture: W28-XQ1A-10

 

For smaller branch lines, I'd also consider dropping in current to the 6A model. W28-XQ1A-6

I too would like to use my PW-ZW transformers but according to the data on the Mouser web site for the breaker (W28-XQ1A-10), the 'trip' time is from 2.2 to 15 seconds.  Isn't that an exceptionally long amount of time considering the delicate electronics in our trains?  Doesn't the PW-ZW have about the same amount of response time which has been condemned on this forum as too long?

Best,

Dave

Dave

 

They trip fairly fast if there is a dead short,not as fast as a fuse though. In practice they are much faster than a PW breaker. Breakers normally are to protect the wire not equipment run. I think these are ample if the layout is wired correct bus sizes.  There are faster breakers available if desired but the one pictured is cheap and reliable.

 

Dale H

Faster breakers tend to be magnetic, and those start about 5-10 times the price.

Dave

The inexpensive Potter-Brumfield breakers tended to trip within a few seconds in a test if you just twisted a truck across the rails to simulate a derailment. However watching the ammeter when testing for a high wattage engine/lighted consist to overload the rating, it appeared to require about 8 seconds on average to trip.

 

A running consist can drag a derailed truck some distance in 8 seconds. However, unless you are using super railpower such as paralleled transformers at 15 or 20 amps you are unlikely to experience much rail marking from a derailment.[just my experience].

 

But the trip time from a gradual overload resulting when running a high wattage consist is not precise or at all scientific,whereas a derailment tripped it almost before one could punch a stopwatch. 

 

John is right about faster-acting magnetic breakers far exceeding the cost of thermal breakers. A good many years ago I purchased one 15 amp magnetic for use on a single power district with a pair of paralleled 135 PoHos linked through a TPC--cost $79.

 

Remember,as noted in prior posts, breakers/fuses are to protect the transformer and wire run[track included] components from over current surges. Transient Voltage Suppressors[TVS] protect the locomotive's innards from the over voltage spikes and require near zero seconds to perform and protect.  

Dale, John and Dewey,

 

Thanks to all three of you for the wealth of infomation passed on.  I have 4 or 5 PW-ZW transformers that I had planned to use, but after reading lots of threads on the forum, I think I'm in the market for at least one new style transformer.  Either a new ZW-L or a Z-4000.  Hopefully someone on the forum will recommend one over the other to go with my new and as yet untested DCS rev L system.  The trials and tribulations will commence when the Christmas tree goes up - I plan on having 3 interconnecting loops.

 

Even then, I think I'll add a quick blow fuse or two 

 

Best,

Dave

I just got my order from mouser and will be installing the TVS and Circuit breakers hopefully tomorrow.Since I am using fast track by the way, with 4  sets of wires supplying power,do I need to add a TVS to each wire for a total of 8 or can I just add 1 to the hot wire, for a total of 4,thanks.Attaching the circuit breaker question?Do I attach the hot wire coming off the post war zw to the circuit breaker and then attach the other wire to the fast tracks center rail.Or do I need circuit breakers for all the wires?

 

Thanks,hope this make sense.

I am pretty sure by reading all the post that I know what to do but I am wanting to

be sure I am attaching these items correctly before I put my TMCC engines on the track.

 

Bryan

Bryan

 

You need one TVS per loop,however that works out with the wiring. TVS goes from the hot of each loop to the common. Only 1 circuit breaker per loop also in series from the hot wire to the center rail. The TVS should be after,downstream from the breaker so that if the circuit breaker trips, the TVS is still connected to the hot.

 

Dave

 

PW transformers are fine as long as you add a fuse or additional breaker. The TVS is needed regardless of transformer used.  As John and others stated you could add also a magnetic breaker,they are fast but expensive. The magnetic breaker most likely would be faster than the quick blow fuse.

 

Dale H

Hi Dale,

 

From Columbus up to Cleveland, I thank you once again!

 

I have already purchased a dozen TVSes to protect "stuff", 5 quick blow fuses and 2 holders for the Christmas tree loops this year.  As you know, there is a chill in the air here in Ohio and most of the leaves on my money tree in the back yard have fallen.  When the leaves "reappear" in the spring, I may pick a few and try one of those magnetic breakers you fellas have suggested - 'til then, money has to go for Christmas presents for the grandkids...

 

I may still sell a few of my ZWs to help offset the cost of a new, modern transformer.  Which of the two would you suggest and why?

 

Best,

Dave

Dave

The new Lionel ZWL is to date untested but looks promising. hard to evaluate ,it is expensive.  The MTH z 4000 is an excellent transformer,I have one and have had no problems and it puts out close to a pure sine wave. If just running command,not conventional the best bang for the buck is simple Lionel bricks as no throttle is needed. Breaker protection is in the brick. Opinions however will vary on transformers and of course all depends on your needs. If just running one loop a starter  type is actually fine such as the Z750.

I run conventional  with most loops automated using just post war type and modern bricks. I use the Z4000 for my not automated loop and it is convenient for programming PS1 units.



Dale H

Dale,

 

I have quite a few Lionel conventional big steam locomotives so I do need a transformer with full controls for running them.  I also have some TMCC and PS-2 big steamers.  After the video that Mike Reagan did on wave forms and potentially REAL voltage output seen from the new style transformers I guess I got hooked into thinking that's what I need.  If I'm gonna run my MIB New York Central power by golly they're gonna put out some smoke or burn up a resistor or two trying!  I'm still not sure that my gold Hudson will make it out of the dispaly case though 

 

Since I haven't started construction on the big layout, I have the luxury of time to make a final decision after I get some feedback on the forum about the new ZW-L when it does makes its appearance.  I'm still gonna keep a couple of my old ZWs for a conventional loop though; just as you have.  I gotta have something to run the train my Dad bought me for Christmas in 1948 - it still runs great after 64 years!

 

Best,

Dave

Dave

 

I saw the video on the new ZWL. I think the demonstration of advantages of the chopped sine wave is a bit misleading and over rated as an advantage. IN addition many MTH locomotives will have problems with it. There was a long post about the new transformer somewhere here However if you run all Lionel stuff you should not have that problem.

 

Dale H

I'm with you Dale.  While some of the perceived advantages may exist, the bonus of the pure sine wave transformers is I've never heard of a compatibility issue where you'd rather have a chopped sine wave.