HOW DO THEY SEE WHERE THEY ARE GOING???

They don't. Same thing with airline pilots and planes. The locomotive and tender (any vehicle for that matter) becomes an extension of the body and the brain treats it as that. This phenomenon is probably unique to homo sapiens sapiens and likely to our fellow humans homo sapiens neanderthalensis and floresiensis who also used advanced tools,

https://thereader.mitpress.mit...e-extensions-of-you/

On the Wilmington & Western RR, we don't run the loco around the consist. There is a caboose on the rear with headlight and horn, which becomes the front of the train for the return trip. The conductor on the rear platform blows for the grade crossings and is in radio contact with the engine crew. The rulebook requires the conductor to notify the engine crew as grade crossings are approached. I'm not an operating member of the crew, so not up on all the rules and protocols, but know that the safety issues have been thought through, and rules are reviewed and revised as needed based on experience.

Interesting article WBC.....but I still can't grasp how an engineer can go flat-out in reverse, not being able to see what's on the track ahead because of that large, wide tender.

It would be like putting our motor car into reverse, and hitting the accelerator while still looking forward, and hoping nothing is in the way!!!!

You steam engineers are brave men!!!!

Peter....Buco Australia.

Also very interesting Ken!!!

So the caboose becomes the head of the train, and the loco and tender remain in the same position, still facing forward, but are now at the rear of the consist, and running in reverse for the return journey. That would be a sight to behold....a whole passenger train being pushed along in reverse!!!!  That would truly create extremely poor vision for the engineer and fireman!!!  Talk about running blind!!!

Anyway, the videos I have seen of the English excursions show the loco and tender still at the head for the return trip, but running in reverse. They have been uncoupled from the "head" of the consist at their station destination, and moved back to the end of the consist via a slip switch/siding.

Because they can't turn the engine at the destination (no turntable available), the loco and tender just move backwards on the slip siding, and re-connect to the end of the consist, but with the front of the loco now coupled to the carriages for the return trip.

Let the fun begin!!!

Peter....Buco Australia

I have a copy of the B&O Rulebook from April 26, 1953. Rule 52: "When cars are pushed by an engine, except when switching or making up trains in a yard, a trainman must be located on the front of the leading car." That person becomes the eyes and ears for the engineer.

I have ridden in the cab during switching moves. The engineer often can't see what's going on at the far end of the train. That's why the brakeman signals the engineer when to move and when to stop.

You would be surprised how much the Engineer and Fireman can see when running in reverse, especially when one knows the territory.

The answer is not as complex as you might think.  Operating a locomotive is not at all like an automobile where you need constant and clear vision in the direction of operation.  First of all, functionally, a steam locomotive operates the same in forward and reverse.  There is no difference in the amount of power.  The actual operation of the locomotive is the same except that the reverser operates on the oposite side of center.

As far as visual operation is concerned, there often is as much tender behind the locomotive as there is firebox and boiler in front of the cab.  Directionally, the engineer (driver) has the rails to rely on.  If properly constructed and all switches are alligned, the train is going to follow the tracks.  As far as crossings, obstructions and switches are concerned, the combined vision of the engineer and fireman are enough to "see" what is ahead.  Crossings are marked, switch stands are off to the side of the line, and there typically is enough vision into a reasonable distance that any obstructions can be seen.

@Buco posted:

Interesting article WBC.....but I still can't grasp how an engineer can go flat-out in reverse, not being able to see what's on the track ahead because of that large, wide tender.

It would be like putting our motor car into reverse, and hitting the accelerator while still looking forward, and hoping nothing is in the way!!!!

You steam engineers are brave men!!!!

Peter....Buco Australia.

Remember that the train stays on the a track, your car can go anywhere the loose nut on the wheel takes it.   If they have an observer with a radio link to the engineer, it makes sense that this is a reasonable way to work it.

@Buco posted:

Interesting article WBC.....but I still can't grasp how an engineer can go flat-out in reverse, not being able to see what's on the track ahead because of that large, wide tender.

A lot depends on the size/length of the engine as well as the tender. For example, the boiler on UP Challenger 3985 is longer than the tender, thus forward visibility is not so bad for either the Engineer and Fireman. But, visibility when running in reverse, is actually better, since the tender is shorter than the engine/boiler.

It would be like putting our motor car into reverse, and hitting the accelerator while still looking forward, and hoping nothing is in the way!!!!

You are trying to compare apples and water mellons!

You steam engineers are brave men!!!!

No really.

Peter....Buco Australia.

Depends on the railroad.

At the Illinois Railway Museum, the engineer on a steam locomotive looks out the right side of the cab going in reverse.  He has a limited view.  There's a conductor at the rear of the train controlling the brakes.  The person at the rear has better visibility and can stop the train.

@cbq9911a posted:

Depends on the railroad.

At the Illinois Railway Museum, the engineer on a steam locomotive looks out the right side of the cab going in reverse.  He has a limited view.  There's a conductor at the rear of the train controlling the brakes.  The person at the rear has better visibility and can stop the train.

Well, not quite the same as what the original poster was asking, i.e. the steam locomotive at the head of the train but, running in reverse.

Strasburg runs around the train.  When you're running backwards with the engine at the front of the train you have reasonable - not perfect - visibility.

Boy, does this ever bring back a memory!!

Back about 70 years ago we would ride from our home in Washington, D.C., to Wisconsin and back by train...B&O to Chicago, CB&Q to LaCrosse, the Columbian and Twin Cities Zephyr, respectively...most summers to visit Mom's relatives/family.   On most of those B&O rides I would have befriended the Conductors who often acknowledged me by name since I could be found in the dome car, the diner, traversing the noisy/bouncing inter-car vestibules,...and, especially, the boat-tailed observation car.  That was THE most magical place for this kid to experience train travel.

On the return trip (eastbound) the Columbian would 'wye' into Union Station.  One time the Conductor asked Mom if he could have me join him in the observation car for a special experience as we neared D.C..  She, of course, agreed.  The observation car was virtually empty of riders in the rearmost lounge area as we entered the car.  The Conductor had me sit at the very rear window.  He opened a small door beneath a side window a couple feet away, exposing some interesting valves.  The train finally came to a stop at the end of the wye adjacent to the Ivy Street yards.  Then the magic started!!

The Conductor manipulated a valve receiving a responsive 'tweet' shortly thereafter.  He explained that he was 'talking' to the engineer, and now, as the train began to slowly move in reverse, he and I would be the 'engineer' and 'fireman'!!  And so it seemed as we were now at the FRONT of the train, traversing a myriad of switchworks, slowly heading for the Union Station terminal platforms.  OMG!  It was simply an awesome experience for this bug-eyed kid!

As we entered the final platform track, the conductor now rapidly conveyed several 'tweets' to the engineer and the train slowed, slowed again, and again,  ...and finally stopped several feet from the station bumper.  "WE" had brought the Columbian into a safe, gentle stop to the station!

Dad  often was unable to make this month-long summer's journey, not having sufficient vacation time from his work...on Capitol Hill.  But he would meet us upon our arrival.  After the first time I was allowed to 'help' back the train into the station, in subsequent trips, Dad would stand, camera at the ready, near the bumper end of the platform and walk beside the train, smiling/waving to me, as we came to a stop.

Ah, well, it doesn't do squat for answering the OP's question, but it sure shook the cobwebs of memory for this kid who just turned 79 last Friday.  Thanks, Peter!!

KD

@dkdkrd the conductor was using the air signal line to talk to the engineer in "code," telling him first to start in reverse, then to slow, and then stop the train. The engineer was still the one starting the train and applying the brakes. All passenger cars used to have these lines, and the valves to send signals were in every car, not just the observation. The line ran all the way to the cab of the engine, where they heard the tweets, too, and knew what they meant.

B&O called these "communicating signals" and they were covered in Rule 16 and Rule 17 in my 1953 rulebook. When standing, 3 short toots meant back, or start in reverse.  While backing 4 short toots meant reduce speed.  Finally, while backing, 2 short toots meant stop. This is what I suspect you heard.

The conductor also used these signals at all intermediate stops to restart the train, in advance of certain meeting points with other trains, in advance of reduced speed movements, to tell the engineer to stop at any flag stops, to turn up the heat in the cars, and other situations. The advance warning signals had to be repeated by the engineer using the locomotive whistle.

Some engines (especially switch engines) had "clear vision" tenders where the coal bunker was narrowed so the crew could look backward more easily.

https://www.brasstrains.com/Cl...8-0-Unpainted-ACESPM

But in either direction, given (as mentioned earlier) the long boiler ahead of the cab, the best way to see forward was/is to lean out the cab window.

https://mshanken.imgix.net/cao...5.jpg?w=900&q=72

@wjstix posted:

Some engines (especially switch engines) had "clear vision" tenders where the coal bunker was narrowed so the crew could look backward more easily.

https://www.brasstrains.com/Cl...8-0-Unpainted-ACESPM

But in either direction, given (as mentioned earlier) the long boiler ahead of the cab, the best way to see forward was/is to lean out the cab window.

Obviously you have neither run, nor fired, a reasonably large steam locomotive. Leaning out of the cab window is a sure way to get really dirty and maybe even get crap in your eyes (even if wearing safety classes)! It is far easier, and better, to simply watch forward out of the window in front of either the Engineer or Fireman.

https://mshanken.imgix.net/cao...5.jpg?w=900&q=72

Thank you one and all (and especially Hot Water) for your valuable insight and explanations. Now I understand it is not as terrifying to watch as it actually is to run a steam locomotive this way.

Also thanks to dkdkrd for providing an incredible childhood memory.......bought a tear to my old eyes.

Peter......Buco Australia.

From the engineers I speak with, the main terror is that so many auto and truck drivers ignore the lights and gates at grade crossings. It is so important for them to cross the railroad right away, and not wait two minutes for the short train to pass. The train cannot stop in the distance that is the width of a road. On an excursion railroad carrying passengers, the stakes are high.

Doesn't help that news reporters always write, "Train hits truck" instead of "Truck drives in front of moving train."

Something that I have yet to see mentioned is the use of the side vent window rearview mirror. These mirrors allowing the engineer to face ahead and look behind are extremly helpful, especially when operating a unit with a desktop control stand or a full width bodied unit! Also, they are invaluable in checking the train during the trip.

I hesitate to suggest it, but, in the 21st Century, this seems like an ideal situation for a video camera. It should be possible to provide redundancy either by a duplicate system or by the conventional means.

MELGAR

@MELGAR posted:

I hesitate to suggest it, but, in the 21st Century, this seems like an ideal situation for a video camera. It should be possible to provide redundancy either by a duplicate system or by the conventional means.

MELGAR

I'm pretty sure that all lead units on the Class I railroads have forward-facing video cameras, with tell-tale footage used in grade-crossing accident court cases.

Running a steam locomotive - forwards or back - leaning out the cab was the normal way it was done in the steam era. It was not unusual for engineers to have goggles to keep their eyes clear of cinders and soot. And yes, they got VERY dirty - but that's how they did it.

A side note - if you look at pictures from the early days of model railroading, when people saw steam engines all the time, you'll see many models with the engineer hanging out the cab window. In recent times, you still it in models once in a while, but not so often.

Today on the W&W RR, when switching with an SW-1 in the yard, a passenger car right behind the engine means the engineer pretty much has to stick his head out the window to see the brakeman. Ditto for a boxcar or caboose.

@Big Jim posted:

Something that I have yet to see mentioned is the use of the side vent window rearview mirror. These mirrors allowing the engineer to face ahead and look behind are extremly helpful, especially when operating a unit with a desktop control stand or a full width bodied unit! Also, they are invaluable in checking the train during the trip.

YES! When running the 765 in reverse, I always used that “rear view mirror” to see behind me.

@wjstix posted:

Running a steam locomotive - forwards or back - leaning out the cab was the normal way it was done in the steam era. It was not unusual for engineers to have goggles to keep their eyes clear of cinders and soot. And yes, they got VERY dirty - but that's how they did it.

Leaning out the window was not how it was done in the steam era. Try that in winter…at 70 mph…

I ran the 765 somewhere around 75,000 miles in my time with her crew. In all those miles, the only time I ever leaned out the window was for some very special or unique situation. Total miles run leaning out the window? Likely less than 2.

Something you all have to understand here. Since you don’t “steer” a locomotive, looking ahead is not nearly as critical as in your car. Sure you look ahead, but the if there’s a vehicle on the track at a crossing, or some other obstruction up ahead, all you can do is dump the air and hang on anyway. You ain’t gonna swerve out of the way…

@wjstix posted:

Running a steam locomotive - forwards or back - leaning out the cab was the normal way it was done in the steam era. It was not unusual for engineers to have goggles to keep their eyes clear of cinders and soot. And yes, they got VERY dirty - but that's how they did it.

A side note - if you look at pictures from the early days of model railroading, when people saw steam engines all the time, you'll see many models with the engineer hanging out the cab window. In recent times, you still it in models once in a while, but not so often.

Having never worked on a main line steam locomotive, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you Rich for your thoughts on this. Basically echoes what Hot Water has said.

It still scares me to think you are basically driving blind at operational speed. It's one thing to be pushing passenger cars or freight cars around in the "fiddle yard" at slow speeds....but out on the main line......well that's a whole new ball game!!!!!

Peter......Buco Australia.

"It still scares me to think you are basically driving blind at operational speed."  And, you can't stop quickly for that idiot at the grade crossing.

@Buco posted:

Thank you Rich for your thoughts on this. Basically echoes what Hot Water has said.

It still scares me to think you are basically driving blind at operational speed.

You seem to be caught up in this "driving blind" concern, which, as both Rich and I have stated, is NOT the case.

It's one thing to be pushing passenger cars or freight cars around in the "fiddle yard" at slow speeds....but out on the main line......well that's a whole new ball game!!!!!

Peter......Buco Australia.

@Buco posted:

Thank you Rich for your thoughts on this. Basically echoes what Hot Water has said.

It still scares me to think you are basically driving blind at operational speed. It's one thing to be pushing passenger cars or freight cars around in the "fiddle yard" at slow speeds....but out on the main line......well that's a whole new ball game!!!!!

We’re not “driving blind” at all! Even in a steam locomotive, you have a clear view of the track ahead. You cannot see what is up close to the locomotive, but you don’t need to. You can clearly see everything from about 50+ yards out. That’s all you need.

And as I said above, if something is on the track, all you can do is put the air in emergency and hang on. At 50 mph, a typical 15-20 car passenger train will need at least a half mile to stop with an emergency application of the air. So you are not going to stop short of an obstruction that’s closer than a half mile anyway.

@wjstix posted:

Running a steam locomotive - forwards or back - leaning out the cab was the normal way it was done in the steam era. It was not unusual for engineers to have goggles to keep their eyes clear of cinders and soot. And yes, they got VERY dirty - but that's how they did it.

wjstix, do you have an email or contact info you can give out?  I looked at your webpage about your music but there was no way to email you there either.  Can't private msg you as you are not a digital subscriber.  Thanks,

Charlie in NC