H1000, I agree that 15-amps for a half second usually beats 10 amps for a half minute. I have 6 circuits on my layout, 5 are protected by 5-amp breakers, since I rarely run more than 2 trains on them and never use smoke. The 6th is 7.5 amp because I often have 3 trains running, including passenger cars with LED lighting. I want the breaker operating near capacity so they blow on slightly increased draw. The ones on the two circuits powered by a PH-180 have never opened since I installed the PH-180 to replace a PW ZW.
George,
No I don't currently use that specific breaker.
The replacement thermal breaker I put in my dad's ZW was rated for 125 - 250 VAC, it trips just fine at lower voltages. (13 volts, 20 amp load tripped in 4 seconds)
My working experience with fuses and breakers has taught me that going under the rated voltage is acceptable, but going over is asking for trouble. Many of the original glass fuses (factory installed) in our old fleet of grain trucks are rated for 250V AC yet the electrical system is 12V DC.
RJR posted:George an amp is an amp, and its heating effect is the same, regardless of the voltage driving it through the breaker. Voltage rating becomes critical when you are trying to break high voltage circuits, where there will be arcing, or where the voltage is high enough to jump across insulation designed for low voltages.
Thanks RJR, I thought I knew that, but the longer I stared at that breaker spec ...... I believe it's called over-thinking 
RJR posted:H1000, I agree that 15-amps for a half second usually beats 10 amps for a half minute. I have 6 circuits on my layout, 5 are protected by 5-amp breakers, since I rarely run more than 2 trains on them and never use smoke. The 6th is 7.5 amp because I often have 3 trains running, including passenger cars with LED lighting. I want the breaker operating near capacity so they blow on slightly increased draw. The ones on the two circuits powered by a PH-180 have never opened since I installed the PH-180 to replace a PW ZW.
RJR, looks like you have good handle on your power distribution, and exactly how much is needed to make everything operate. Your circuits have limited access to full power that is available!
I run analog amp meters to monitor my needs but depend on the PH180s to shut things down.
Geopeg: One does not overthink when one does a cautious, careful analysis.
I guess it's time for my annual (or more often) warning regarding playing with electricity when you don't understand electricity:
Please disregard all the above "answers" that suggest using screwdrivers or other short-circuiting items. It is advice like that that makes us electricians (and fire fighters, fire marshals and EMS volunteers) cringe.
Please disregard all the above answers that do not include the following advice:
"Place a variable load across the A and U posts (of a ZW) in series with an ammeter. Increase the load until the circuit breaker operates, observing the ammeter in order to determine at what current flow the breaker opens. Allow the breaker to cool and reset. Repeat until you have a range of operating currents to use as a guide.
"For 'variable load' you can use one or more resistances, such as a handful of 40- or 60-Watt household lamps. Place them in parallel using porcelain sockets and test leads. Add lamps until the current reading approaches the specified ampacity of the transformer."
"What you are doing is creating, in a safe and controlled environment, what is known as a 'load bank'"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_bank
APB, electrician, fire fighter, fire marshal and EMS volunteer.
About 5 seconds on a screwdriver short, plugged into a power strip in case the blade welds itself to the terminals 
Considering it has been "serviced" recently, you should inspect to see which breaker is installed, diode vs rectifier disk etc.. (and that rollers actually roll vs slide) .
If a thermal breaker is a tad slow, a wrap of the feed wire around the breaker case will increase the temp and cause the breaker to trip faster. This is how V/KW/VWs used the Z/ZW breakers once the VW(V) part was discontinued. Some early ones were adjustable and seeing one ina later unit wouldn't really surprise me.
Having each main fused or breakered as low as possible is a great step in the right direction. You should actually add a fuse any time you step down wire size below the preceding fuse/breaker rating.
Adriatic posted:
Having each main fused or breakered as low as possible is a great step in the right direction. You should actually add a fuse any time you step down wire size below the preceding fuse/breaker rating.
So going from my bus line (14 gauge) to my feeders (16 gauge), I should consider placing a breaker (or fuse box) between them? And what is the appropriate rating to use when doing so?
Arthur P. Bloom posted:I guess it's time for my annual (or more often) warning regarding playing with electricity when you don't understand electricity:
Please disregard all the above "answers" that suggest using screwdrivers or other short-circuiting items. It is advice like that that makes us electricians (and fire fighters, fire marshals and EMS volunteers) cringe.
Please disregard all the above answers that do not include the following advice:
"Place a variable load across the A and U posts (of a ZW) in series with an ammeter. Increase the load until the circuit breaker operates, observing the ammeter in order to determine at what current flow the breaker opens. Allow the breaker to cool and reset. Repeat until you have a range of operating currents to use as a guide.
"For 'variable load' you can use one or more resistances, such as a handful of 40- or 60-Watt household lamps. Place them in parallel using porcelain sockets and test leads. Add lamps until the current reading approaches the specified ampacity of the transformer."
"What you are doing is creating, in a safe and controlled environment, what is known as a 'load bank'"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_bank
APB, electrician, fire fighter, fire marshal and EMS volunteer.
Thanks for this. So ... where do I get an ammeter that measures above 10 amps for a reasonable price? My multimeter only measures up to 10A, and a majority of the ones I see for sale at Lowe's and Home Depot are similarly rated ... unless I drop major ducats. I have a handful of porcelain sockets, so I could put together a load bank relatively easily.
Here’s just one source. I’m sure there are many more.
Here's a cheap one and good for a lot of other stuff too...
If one takes Adriatic's advice seriously, then every 120-volt receptacle in a house should be fused or breakered, because at that point one goes from the 12 or 14 gauge (20 or 15 amp) house wire to an 18-gauge lamp cord.
In residential construction, general rule is that all installed wire downstream of a breaker must be adequate to carry the load passed by that breaker.
If one takes Adriatic's advice seriously, then every 120-volt receptacle in a house should be fused or breakered, because at that point one goes from the 12 or 14 gauge (20 or 15 amp) house wire to an 18-gauge lamp cord.
While I don't know how common they are, I have seen photos of European plugs with fuses built into the bodies.
Yes, a small gauge wire being fed more amperage than it can safely handle should ideally be fused.
The only time we really see this anymore are holiday lights; and better ones with small gauge wire DO contain a replaceable fuse within the plug or a fusible link somewhere. In the case of a lamp, the lamp filament is also a fuse, though not ideal or ideally placed imo, by design offerers a certain amount of protection over say a motor or other high draw item. There is room for code improvent too; GFI'S will eventually be the standard for inatance.
Even the home plug recepticals themselves contain sacrificial portions that are more of less fuses as well. E.g. draw 20a, over a 20 anp line but a 10amp rated plug receptical and the sacrificial strip likely blows, not the breaker. Our home systems are fairly safe, but is in fact a workable compromise; a minimum standard that can be improved on easily; here because if the wire in the circuit is the weakest point, it will get red hot and toast first if the amps are exceeded, a fuse stops that. At some point I guess a fine wire could also be considered inconsequential in the amount of power it could deliver, but skipping a fuse wouldn't preserve the wire's integrity should things go awry.
My last off road vehicle had something like 72 fuses(three big GM boxes) where the original had 8, and the portable radios plugged in a lighter A short was not easily taking out any full circuit, a fender could be missing, and dragging wires, no worries. Another electrical tech bought it and was smiling
I run 8 fuses on my accessory wiring, none on my mains and my bus is 12g drops 12-14g. My other layouts are similar; my transformer breakers in order.
I am found of fuses to protect my unmonitored wires; I will also short across enough power to weld with using a screwdriver. In the former case I'm oblivious, the later I'm immediately informed, I find missing the former to be a far riskier compromise
RJR posted:If one takes Adriatic's advice seriously, then every 120-volt receptacle in a house should be fused or breakered, because at that point one goes from the 12 or 14 gauge (20 or 15 amp) house wire to an 18-gauge lamp cord.
In residential construction, general rule is that all installed wire downstream of a breaker must be adequate to carry the load passed by that breaker.
The last sentence says it all really . I tend to illustrate with extremes. Some tend to overlook this in low volt applications.
Adriatic posted:I run 8 fuses on my accessory wiring, none on my mains and my bus is 12g drops 12-14g. My other layouts are similar; my transformer breakers in order.
Ok. You've given me plenty to think about. I'm considering pulling out the drops I already have installed and replacing with 14 gauge wire, and wiring up the rest with 14 gauge as well. That should eliminate the need for fuses on my track since my bus wire is 14 gauge as well. Right now, I have 14 gauge wiring going from my accessory transformer to my accessories (16 gauge). I have the accessories feed into pluggable WAGO Terminal Blocks. I could place a fuse in front of each of those blocks simply enough. If you don't mind ... what setup for your fuses do you use? Thanks.
Slow down, Deuce. Personally, I wouldn't do anything.
Question: Do you have insulated blocks, so that each drop feeds only a length of track, or do you have multiple drops without insulating the center rail between drops?
Save me the need to re-read the entire thread. What amperage is your current fuses/breakers?
RJR posted:Slow down, Deuce. Personally, I wouldn't do anything.
Question: Do you have insulated blocks, so that each drop feeds only a length of track, or do you have multiple drops without insulating the center rail between drops?
Save me the need to re-read the entire thread. What amperage is your current fuses/breakers?
Short answer is: multiple drops without insulating the center rail between drops, and I'll have two 5A or 8A breakers (both are ordered and in the mail).
I have a 4x8 table. Two independent loops, currently with two transformers (a CW40 and CW80 - in phase) each powering one of the loops (I plan on replacing both of these with the KW). For the inner O27 loop, I have five drops from my lockons (all with connected TVS') to the bus. For the outer FT loop, I haven't placed the drops yet, but planned on doing one every four or five sections (with another adjacent section wired with a TVS). I don't have any insulated blocks.
I hadn't planned on doing anything, until I started reading about how postwar KW's may not necessarily behave well with modern day electronics. I think I have that covered with the TVS' so my only other concern was having a "run away" transformer. I suppose the 5A or 8A breakers will take care of most of the rest of my issues. I just wanted to figure out if the breaker in the KW was good or not ... hence this entire discussion.
It's been pretty informative, especially as someone who is electrically ignorant. I appreciate all the conversation and advice. I'd rather overbuild and not need it, than underbuild and regret it in the future.
Deuce, if I read you correctly, you have multiple 16-ga drops coming from a 14-ga buss. No need to replace anything, since all those 16-ga wires are in parallel and share the load. I would put 10-amp or less breakers in each feed from the transformer, and sleep tight.
If you put fuses in every drop, you'll go nuts every time you have a derailment. The best safety device is to turn off 120-volt power to a layout when you leave the room.
Adriatic, let's go one more step: How many devices do you plug into a 15-amp outlet that cannot take 15 amps, like battery chargers, electric train transformers, vacuum cleaners, moto-tools? Let's face it: in a residence, protection rarely goes downstream beyond the receptacles.
I agree. You are only on a small layout and done is done. Run it as hard as you can and then carefully feel your wires for heat.
It would be better to post a detailed diagram of what you have, what you dream on, and ask for flaws, improvements, plans, etc.. I use 12g on 25ft runs on a 12x15 as well. I will only suggest folk add fuses/breakers Extra doesn't hurt. Rather than focus on were I did or didn't do for myself.as of yet, think about why I made the choices
You're overlooking some other factors as well; like I run old track and over 90% postwar; you have electronics; cast metal engines don't melt, many diesels can; two engines alone might pull 6-8amps and (could) peak at 10-12a. Four can motors don't compare.. Don't forget the bulb lit passenger cars are yours l.e.d?. I am on a transformer throttle, not a remote, a power switch is mounted away from my power supplies to kill the source. I have 50 years of running experience, and will hear the chnge in "hum" even if I miss the click. I also opportunity to be very attentive as well, no kids or other home life distractions. The light twenty something gauge feed wire of my 5v street lamps coming off a terminal block got one, the flagman's shack's base and hot lead both got one, Talking station got one, doorbell transformer and 50w Marx got one. culvert loader, & turnout power. My advice is always going to be ad more breakers and fuses
I fuse my accessories first as a general rule because they are not always breaker protected inside the trasformers.
Deuce posted:Adriatic posted:
Having each main fused or breakered as low as possible is a great step in the right direction. You should actually add a fuse any time you step down wire size below the preceding fuse/breaker rating.
So going from my bus line (14 gauge) to my feeders (16 gauge), I should consider placing a breaker (or fuse box) between them? And what is the appropriate rating to use when doing so?
RJR posted:If one takes Adriatic's advice seriously, then every 120-volt receptacle in a house should be fused or breakered, because at that point one goes from the 12 or 14 gauge (20 or 15 amp) house wire to an 18-gauge lamp cord.
In residential construction, general rule is that all installed wire downstream of a breaker must be adequate to carry the load passed by that breake
With the wording used, I feel you disagree with me somehow, but on reflection of the facts we have both written, I don't see a difference. I didn't suggest that each drop off a bus be fused. A 14g bus would need just one, unless that bus also fed say three feet of 24g wire for a few bulbs in series, then a fuse should be added at the 24g for the 24g. (a variant of my text)
A fuse for each main, i.e. a fuse for each throttle, Fused at least for the wire, better if fused for the maximum expected draw (to afford the item more protection)
If you use this breaker or that fuse is apples vs oranges vs seedless on which is better, The more important thing is all are good eating.
I wasn't referring to you when speaking of fusing drops. Deuce had indicated he was contemplating that step.
" I fuse my accessories first as a general rule because they are not always breaker protected inside the trasformers."
That's a good point, Adriatic, that bears repeating. Many persons do not realize that older Lionel transformers with various binding post configurations do not have breaker protection on all combinations. TYpe R does not, and relying solely on old memory, the KW may not.
Shorts do occur on accessory circuits.
That's a good point, Adriatic, that bears repeating. Many persons do not realize that older Lionel transformers with various binding post configurations do not have breaker protection on all combinations. TYpe R does not, and relying solely on old memory, the KW may not.
I cannot think of ANY postwar Lionel train transformer that does not have binding post combinations that would not be protected by the internal circuit breaker. That includes the KW as well as the ZW, which would not have any protection from a circuit created between two power terminals. I think this comment brings us back almost to the beginning of this rather long thread.
CW, was not the R also produced after WWII? I cannot find my KW schematic, but looking at the pictures of the rear, I would guess that not every usable combination is protected. Multiple breakers would be needed.
C W Burfle posted:I cannot think of ANY postwar Lionel train transformer that does not have binding post combinations that would not be protected by the internal circuit breaker...
Excepting, of course, single train transformers like the 1010, etc.
CW, was not the R also produced after WWII?
1946-1947 according to Tandem Associates. They strive to have accurate information, so I assume this is correct.
Why do you ask?
I don't care for any of the metal cased Lionel transformers, such as the "R". I won't use them, and would not recommend their use to anybody.
Excepting, of course, single train transformers like the 1010, etc.
True, but some of those little transformers don't have circuit breakers at all. Please don't ask me which ones.
C.W., reason I ask is that you said "I cannot think of ANY postwar Lionel train transformer that does not have binding post combinations that would not be protected by the internal circuit breaker." (Italics added.) I see a lot of those old Type Rs at train shows.
I assume that you have a KW schematic. Please take a look and see if every combination of posts is breaker-protected?
I don't disagree with your comment on metal-cased transformers, since there is always a danger of a hot 120-volt wire touching the inside of the case. Were the Types V & Z metal-cased?
You can find almost all of the Lionel factory service manual pages, which typically include schematics on the Olsen's web site. (Olsen's has even made up some pages for items Lionel missed)
Look here: Olsens - Transformer index
Or here: Olsens - main index
Thanks for the link, CW. The schematic specifically says the breaker doesn't protect circuits using A-B, B-D, & C-U. Granted that the back of the transformer doesn't show those as acceptable combinations.
Adriatic posted:The light twenty something gauge feed wire of my 5v street lamps coming off a terminal block got one, the flagman's shack's base and hot lead both got one, Talking station got one, doorbell transformer and 50w Marx got one. culvert loader, & turnout power. My advice is always going to be ad more breakers and fuses
I fuse my accessories first as a general rule because they are not always breaker protected inside the trasformers.
My accessory transformer is a Lionel 7H20. It runs straight to the middle of the table - using 14 gauge wire - where I split it three ways - one to each of three ends of the table- with a WAGO terminal block (the other end is run by a Just Plug light system). At the end of each one of those runs is another WAGO terminal block. Each accessory is connected (by 16 or 18 gauge wire) to one of the terminal blocks. For all my MARX and old Lionel Accessories, they're wired with 16 gauge wire. For my MTH house, and Lionel Coal Tower which both have 20 gauge wires, I connected them using wing wire connectors to 18 gauge wire, and then connected them to the terminal blocks. I have a total of six accessories (Marx Switch Tower, Marx Railroad Crossing, Lionel 394, MTH Passenger Station, MTH House, and Lionel Coal Tower) wired up this way ... though I have three yard lights (6-12927) arriving on Monday.
I was thinking it would be easy enough to throw a fuse box in front of each WAGO terminal block (so a total of three) ... not sure if this would provide complete coverage, but I imagine it's better than nothing. Thoughts?
I have a Lionel FT Plug-N-Play track section - the three connection kind, which allows you to run it with a transformer (I have a 54 Watt / 3 Amp brick I can use. Would I be better off using that for the yard lights, or would nine accessories total on the 7H20 be fine? Or should I swap the 7H20 out for the CW40? The CW80 fan makes a horrendous noise, which is why I purchased the KW in the first place, so until I get that fan fixed (I was going to buy a kit and do it myself) the CW80 isn't a viable option.
Ok, finally cracked it open to take a look. This is what I see ...
Does this look about right? I assume the rectifier disk is on the left, the circuit breaker on the right ... and that's one of the rollers in the middle.
A couple of questions:
1. I plugged it in and it hums. Normal?
2. For the rollers, one actually rolls, the other starts to but catches and then slides. How do I fix that?
3. Is the red light supposed to always be on when the transformer is powering the track? I may need to replace the bulb if so.
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The breaker looks new & modern.
The hum is normal.
The red light should not be on when operating the track. That light is used to indicate a short on the track.
Thanks! I'll be adding it to the track tomorrow. Have my circuit breakers, so I'll build the box and get everything wired up. Thank you for all the help everyone! This was a very informative thread for me.
The roller that slides instead of rolls should be replaced. Its a simple fix. Get a new roller and a new rivet ( order 2 rivets, they are easy to lose )
RJR posted:
I don't disagree with your comment on metal-cased transformers, since there is always a danger of a hot 120-volt wire touching the inside of the case. Were the Types V & Z metal-cased?
The are cased in Bakelite but do have a metal bottom plate. However, their design has the all of the mains parts in the "upper" half of the case (which is in two separate pieces, the top one which is essentially self-contained) so there's no real chance of the bottom plate ever becoming electrically hot. A pretty safe case design, actually, IMHO - although the remote possibility always exists that the binding posts could become hot.
Deuce posted:I already have external 5A circuit breakers I'll wire up ... but how do i test the internal breaker to see if it's good.
How about putting a PW engine on a track short it out, time it? This should answer any questions
Walter Anderson posted:Deuce posted:I already have external 5A circuit breakers I'll wire up ... but how do i test the internal breaker to see if it's good.
How about putting a PW engine on a track short it out, time it? This should answer any questions
No need for the engine - just use a small piece of insulated heavy gauge wire (14 AWG or heavier) or a metal tool with an insulated handle (like a screwdriver) to create a short. There's a small chance you could damage what you create the short across (like a piece of track) or what you create the short with - so choose them with an eye to potential damage. Also, always have the transformer plug at the ready in case you end up welding the the wire/screwdriver into place and the breaker is defective (and thus cannot "unshort" yourself).
Personally, when I test transformer breakers I do it by touching the necessary two binding post NUTS. The nuts are easily replaceable if they are damaged, and doing it at the transformer doesn't expose any other wiring in the layout to the high current of the short.
JTrains posted:Walter Anderson posted:Deuce posted:I already have external 5A circuit breakers I'll wire up ... but how do i test the internal breaker to see if it's good.
How about putting a PW engine on a track short it out, time it? This should answer any questions
in case you end up welding the the wire/screwdriver into place and the breaker is defective (and thus cannot "unshort" yourself).
Lol....... don't really have to worry it welding together, do we?...........lol
