How Much Did A New Lionel Locomotive Cost In 1953?

Take a look on Ebay.  There are some 2046 listed

Brent

MSRP was $37.50 for the 2046.  The top of the line steamer was the 736 Berkshire at $43.50 whereas an AA set of F3's was $47.50.  Top of the line set was #2190W....a pair of SF F3's and 4 "Speedliner" aluminum cars at $89.50.

Bruce

So,  if a 2046 was $37.50 in 1953, that would make it $332.89 in 2015, the latest numbers available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Right in line with Lion Chief + street prices.

Pete

Here's a page from the 1952 Sears Christmas catalog. Cannot see the numbers but bottom steamer one should be close.

franktrain

Texas Pete posted:

So,  if a 2046 was $37.50 in 1953, that would make it $332.89 in 2015, the latest numbers available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Right in line with Lion Chief + street prices.

Pete

I don't think that math holds true for everything, a 1953 caddy was about $3000 new. today the same car is $70,000.

mytrains posted:

I don't think that math holds true for everything, a 1953 caddy was about $3000 new. today the same car is $70,000.

You can get a 2015 Cadillac CTS, for example, for under $40K.

If you don't mind waiting few days ( working today and tomorrow), I will open my Toy Trains Digital Archive and search for 1953 ads and see what I come up with.

Peter

breezinup posted:

mytrains posted:

I don't think that math holds true for everything, a 1953 caddy was about $3000 new. today the same car is $70,000.

You can get a 2015 Cadillac CTS, for example, for under $40K.

you could, but back then they did not make mini caddys, that would be like comparing O to HO.  a top of the line Caddy convertible was $3600 in 1953. waht is a top of the line caddy today, then add 10k for convertible.  compare apples to apples

Any idea of the prices of 1953 Marx or Hafner engines and how they compare to Lionel?

I looked through my digital archive copies of the Lionel 1953 catalog. I looked at both the full sized and pocket sized issues, and did not see any steam locomotives listed for separate sale. I only saw separate sale diesels. Seems odd. Did I miss them?

Page 8 at the lower left corner.  All prices quoted were from the 1953 catalog...the analog one.

Bruce

My brother and I were the last ones on the block to get a set of trains.  My father was a government worker and the pay was not great back then.  However, when we did finally get our trains we were more than compensated for the wait.  Our parents bought a used train layout from a man whose boys had outgrown it.  This was when I was about 10 years old, 1958.  For $50.00, they got a semi-scale switcher, three tinplate passenger cars, a tinplate 2-4-2 w/Vanderbuilt tender, three Madison cars, 4' x 12' platform with two ovals of track and some sidings, ZW (the square one) transformer, Tin Lionel City station, all kinds of lead figures and a box-cab electric loco, some freight cars, Lamp posts, and more other items than I can remember now.  

Unfortunately when I was 17, my interest was waning, so I traded it all for a Super 8 movie camera, projector, screen, editor, etc.  Then when I was in my early 30s, my interest and income was such that I started out again in the hobby.  I'm sure many of you have very similar stories. 

Now, getting back to the subject of this thread.  I haven't purchased any Lionel trains since the early 90s, when I switched over to large scale.  I am impressed with the products that have been produced by Lionel, MTH, etc.  What shocks me is the sticker price !   Lionel locos fetch a higher price than most LGB, USA Trains and the now defunct Aristocraft.  I enjoy watch Eric Siegels Youtube critiques, but when I see the prices of some of these beautiful models I am dumbfounded.  

A few photos of the last layout I had.  Dismantled in the early 90's.  A good thing too, because in the winter of 1993/94 when we had all of that ice and snow all winter, my basement flooded with four feet of water on January 28.  The ground was covered with solid ice and it poured that day.  The water had nowhere to go and found it's way into my basement.  If my layout had still been there I would have been even more upset as my boiler and hot water heater got inundated with water.  

Texas Pete posted:

So,  if a 2046 was $37.50 in 1953, that would make it $332.89 in 2015, the latest numbers available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics inflation calculator.

Right in line with Lion Chief + street prices.

Pete

Except in 1953 it was made in the USA in 2015 it was made in China where the labor cost is a way lower than a 10 times inflation since 1953.

Bogie

In 1950, a #736 was reduced to $37.50 and a Hudson at $50 was added to be the top of the line.  I don't know if the Hudson was still made in 1953, but iof so would have been top of the line dollar wise.

Sorry Matt.....not much luck....lots of ads, but only a few with prices, and they're list price...here are the 3 with prices.

The 1st 2 pics are from January 1954.

The 3rd pic is from December 1954.

I wonder if anyone who has a Model Railroader archive can see if there are Madison Hardware ads from the era....I don't even know if Madison Hardware advertised in that era...I know they did in the 60s and 70s.

Peter

Around 1960-1962 my parents bought me a ZW, yellow box.  Still have the box and the price on it  says $19.88.  Purchased from

S. Klein's on the Square, Broad St. in downtown Newark NJ.  This was the only Christmas gift I received that year, .

Does anyone else have postwar with the prices marked on the box?

RJR posted:

In 1950, a #736 was reduced to $37.50 and a Hudson at $50 was added to be the top of the line.  I don't know if the Hudson was still made in 1953, but iof so would have been top of the line dollar wise.

The 1950 Hudson referred to is the 773, it was $49.95 in Lionel's the 50th anniversary, it wasn't produced again until 1964 - 1966 (I'm pretty sure of these years).

Mike

I can tell you 2 discounted prices because I saw the Macy's stickers on the boxes from 1958.

My New Haven F3 Freight set #2507, list $65, was $39.95in December 1958, Macy's White Plains NY.

My ZW, list $39.95, was $21.95 in December 1958, Macy's White Plains, NY.

Peter

I don't think simply looking at inflation tells the whole story.  There are quite a few factors involved in determining what something should cost throughout time.  For example with the new Caddy example you have to remember that there are many more costs in a modern version in terms of saftey design, emmessions design, and simply the fact that the modern version is all around a vastly superior product. You can argue the last one if you want, but in any measurable way the new car is a better one, styling not considered.  Point is, if offered both  models today, assuming the EPA and NHTSA didn't laugh you out of the room, the 50's model caddy would be considered an entry level product,missing all of the advanced features that the new model has, and priced accordingly.   You can see some of this when you look at the difference between a new cadillac (XTS $45k) and it's chevy cousin (Impala $27k).  While both cars are fundamentally the same thing, build on the same body by workers making the same wage, in factories with the same equipment, and made of the same materials, one car costs almost twice what the other does.  The fact that both versions sell well shows us that the bare bones version is plenty for some folks, while others are willing to pay twice as much for the came car with some slightly improved features.  

Another factor to consider is the market for the product, and if it has substantially changed.  In the 50's that 2046 was a mass produced offered for sale in the Wal-marts of it's day, all the large department stores.  When you can spread the cost of development and creating tooling out over a massive production run, those costs add very little to the price tag.  When you have to spread them out on a short, built to order run, they can be significant.  So, it really isn't fair to compare a high end high production model to a high end low production model.  Even things like LionChief starter sets are not made in nearly the same quantity as 2046's were, but it is the closest thing we have to look at.  

So, what does a 2046 do?  We ask this to try and find a similar product in the modern lineup to compare with.  It runs forward, reverse, and neutral.  Smokes, whistles, and has some fair looking cast in detail and a fair looking running gear.  I think all of these features are met in every engine Lionel offers today, except maybe the lowest end 2-4-2's which, in my opinion, have garbage looking running gear.  What would I compare the 2046 to?  The closest modern counterpart would have to be something mass produced with smoke, whistle, fair details, and that just runs well.  What comes to mind is the Polar Express's 2-8-4 Berkshire, as Lionel doesn't seem to be using Hudsons in their entry level products any more.  Here you have a similarly featured engine to that 2046, and you get the whole set with track, 3 coaches, and Lionel has to pay royalties for the name... for about the same price as the 2046, in CPI inflated dollars.  The engine it's self is about half the price.  

The CPI (consumer price index) method for calculating inflation also has an inherent problem that is not often discussed.  This method takes the cost of a large number of consumer goods such as a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, an automobile, a dinner for four.  finished products that people buy.  You add up the cost of a huge list of items, then divide the modern price by the price in whatever year you are looking back to.  you can then take whatever item and multiply it by that number to get an approximate cost in modern dollars.  The problem with this method is that it does not consider that the actual manufacturing costs of these list of products may have changed.  For example, in 1950 it may have taken one worker one hour to do a given task, where as with modern machinery it takes that same one worker only 15 minutes to do the task.  The CPI assumes that the product in question still takes a man an hour, and is there for worth 1 hour's labour, when in reality it is worth a quarter of that.  

The CPI has no way to account for the fact that in real world resources most of the products it uses actually cost less than they did in the past, and as suct if you base your inflation on a modern number that is using modern, lower prices, you get a number that is only useful if you can reasonably assume the the production costs for the item in question would have gone down as well.  In the case of Lionel trains the production costs have actually gone up as quantities have gone down.  

Perhaps a better way to see just where a product lands in the scheme of things over time is to compare it to a single resource that has not changed in real value overly much in the last 100 years.  Yes it is affected by supply and demand like anything else, but for the most part demand has kept up with supply as use in computer processors grew with new supply being mined.  The single resource in question would be Gold.  As of today an ounce of gold is worth about $1,100.  in 1953 it was $35.  If you take that to the trains you can buy all but the most expensive products offered today, for the same ounce of gold that the 2046 cost in 1953.

Economics sure is fun, isn't it?  

JGL

Economics has never been fun, and prone to the skewing of statistics to serve an argument, and that comparison means nothing in reality.  There are so many other factors involved.  The best answer was the 1952 Sears catalog page.  It is in black and white.

A tad off the heart of the topic, but here's a comparison of a 1950's "tank" auto and a current model--head on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...=em-share_video_user

This from 1947, Just sent in 25 cents and receive Lionel 32 page full color catalog and also receive a Sound Effects Recording, you can hear the trains whistle, and thrill to the excitement of Lionel model railroading.

Just send in 10 cent for the Catalog Only.

I scan this image from the original magazine and cleaned up the yellowed pages in PhotoShop™.

Click on advertisement to enlarge......  They most of had an "AD MAN" ..........

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Wow, in1953 I was 9 Years old. I lived in Dennison Texas and there was a large Hardware Store, named Jackson County Hardware. In the front window display, which was typical for many large department stores in the 1950's, as the beautiful Sante Fe F3's, and I wanted them so much. I told Santa Claus, however, that was just out of the question at that time. I think the retail price was around $22.50???  I may not be correct on the price, but, we just could not afford them at that time. Thank you for the question. Great Thread....Happy Railroading

RJR posted:

A tad off the heart of the topic, but here's a comparison of a 1950's "tank" auto and a current model--head on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...=em-share_video_user

Just goes to show that much improvement has been made to automobiles.  Not just in safety, but also in longevity.  Back in the fifties and sixties, 50,000 miles on a car and it was ready for the scrap yard.  Today it's nothing to hear of 150,000 and more on cars and they still have miles to go.  Yes, prices are about ten times what they were in the sixties, but considering all of the economics, the average price of an automobile compares favorably to wages both then and now.

Here ya go, Putnam Division. Hope they can be read. Madison Hardware 'Closeout' ad..circa 1956

Peter, Madison Hardware ad in MR - December 1951  #2046 - $37.50

          Madison Hardware ad in MR July 1953 #2046 - $32.50 

DP posted:

RJR posted:

A tad off the heart of the topic, but here's a comparison of a 1950's "tank" auto and a current model--head on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...=em-share_video_user

Just goes to show that much improvement has been made to automobiles.  Not just in safety, but also in longevity.  Back in the fifties and sixties, 50,000 miles on a car and it was ready for the scrap yard.  Today it's nothing to hear of 150,000 and more on cars and they still have miles to go.  Yes, prices are about ten times what they were in the sixties, but considering all of the economics, the average price of an automobile compares favorably to wages both then and now.

Yeah, but too bad today's cars don't look as cool as those "tanks" from the 50's! ��

BTW..within the Madison Hardware ad, you'll notice that the O gauge version of the 2046.....646.sells for 29.75..

My ZW was 39.95 bought in 1948 and was the 250 watt model.  The set was the 2153WS and I think it was $60.00.  That was a huge chunk of money for the average person.  But after Christmas, the Vandevers Department store marked all the trains down 50% since they were seasonal items.  My grandma was an employee and got a 15% discount on top of that.  Lucky for me the stuff that was left over tended to be the most expensive stuff.  Oh, and then I was born a few years later, so I know who the train was really for.  I asked my mother about that last year and she said my dad always wanted a train but they were dirt poor and going through the depression etc., he never had anything like that.  So he was bound and determined that his kids would have a toy train.

Great stuff guys.....I think that my Dad got a great deal on my New Haven Freight set 2507....$65 discounted to $39.95...This picture was taken circa 2000 in my attic layout in my other house....runs like the day I got it.

Peter

BReece posted:

Take a look on Ebay.  There are some 2046 listed

Brent

I have to ask. How would looking at Ebay tell us what the price of a 2046 was in the year NINETEEN HUNDRED FIFTY-THREE?

Thanks for all the info, everyone. Interesting stuff.

It appears my family bought the LIONEL 1505WS OUTFIT .... I stumbled upon it on eBay.

Very similar to the set that FrankTrain indicated ..... it also has a $49.95 price printed on the box .....

A very well thought out response by Johngaultline. You can't always compare apples to apples, but you can use reference points to make things somewhat understandable. Here a multiplier of 9 to 10 can bring a base item from 53 into perspective with a base item in today's world. The CPI index can do this for prices/costs in other years to see relationships as to how affordable something was in terms of disposable income in the origination year with it's cost for a similar featured item today. Often you get much more for your money today (relative). (My first PC with no hard drive and 256K of memory was $4,000 dollars in 1982; today a lot more for a lot lot less.)

Hielsie

My parents paid about $50 for my turbine with 4 freight cars and an oval of track.

Dennis