How Much Does a New-in-the-Box Engine Depreciate?

I have to agree with the other John, I'd plan o 50-60% of the retail if it's not a super rare item that simply isn't available anywhere else.

Agree with John. Unless it is an upscale 3rd Rail engine,then I might pay more,up to 80% depending on how bad I wanted it..

So for used PS2 engines,always price in board replacement,about $300.

Just food for thought but even new engines,both Lionel and MTH from a dealer lack warranty after a certain time. Dont see how they can sell their old stock for 50% off and make a profit.

Proto1 stuff even less maybe 35% MSRP.

Dale H

Well, you can get the PS2 kit for $180, so you could figure $200 for the replacement if necessary as long as you can do the replacement yourself.   Of course, I've bought a few PS2 locomotives and haven't gotten a bad board yet.

If you replace it yourself the board does not have a warranty. A service center gives I think 90 days but charges installation $$$s. I do not consider my time free. When I worked as a tech I made good money.  Board replacement would take at least 2 hours I think and $50 an hour is not unreasonable for an electronics tech today. Personally I gut bad PS2 engines run them conventional and install RS4 for sound.Fidelity is much better than the original PS2 which sounds tinny.

Dale H

The most I would pay is $275.00 for a diesel premier PS2 Engine.

With, some crooked dealers, 'NEVER!!!'

As, I found out when new to the hobby and after buying an old item, supposedly 'BRANDEEE NEW' in box, 'NEVER' before used!

YEAH!!!!!!!

I won't say who, where located, or brand of item.

RJL

Depends on the engine, and also depends on not only how badly the buyer wants it, but who that buyer is.

As a ballpark general rule for many locomotives:  Probably 50-60% of MSRP for new-in-box, depending on age.

Lots of good guidelines so far. And I agree with much of what's been said.  They're the cold hard facts of today's toy train marketplace.  When we sell our trains, we have a couple of factors working against us.  Most notable, very few folks are collectors nowadays.  Not everyone here would readily agree with that, but that's just how it is now.  Secondly, since it's primarily an operator's market, the majority tend to want the latest and greatest features -- no matter how incremental the improvement.  So even though your locomotives are brand spankin' new, they're simply not as desirable unless you throw in an incentive... which is almost always price!

As I've often commented before, just throw out the published price guides... 'cause they're pretty much useless in today's market.  Sure, they may make you FEEL good about your stuff's worth.  But it's largely a false sense of reality.

Many of us grew up during the era that saw Lionel producton dwindle to almost nothing -- the late 1960's and early 1970's.  So when we saw stuff coming out again years later, we grabbed it thinking it was our one chance to acquire those items again.  Little did we know that we were entering what has become a pretty long era of non-stop production accompanied with technological advances that have quickly outdated purchases of just a couple years earlier.  So no matter how "new" our stuff may seem, it's old by definition. And we don't even have nostalgia working in our favor these days -- a few exceptions notwithstanding for those out their that ARE "collecting for the sake of collecting".

Bottom line... If folks are gonna buy something today, they had better well get some enjoyment from their hard-earned $$$ by RUNNING those trains.  And folks who are selling trains today?  Well, they'd do very well to just price their stuff to move! 'cause there's ALWAYS someone looking for a bargain!

All IMHO, of course.  

David

I agree with gunrunnerjohn's assessment above.   If it was something that I absolutely had to have, I might pay a little more.

Additionally, I have an interesting story that's somewhat related to this topic.  About a year ago I was at my local hobby shop.  A gentleman walked in the door stating that he had some trains he was looking to sell.  He handed the owner the list of items.  It contained all of the scale steam engines that Lionel released from the mid-1980s through the early 1990s (700E, 783, 784, 785, both T-1s, S2 Turbine, WM Shay, Mikados, etc.).  His jaw dropped when he learned that all of the values for those engines had dropped so severely that many go (brand new in the box) for less than $300-$400 each with only a couple of exceptions going for a little more than that.  He was expecting a large pay day as he figured the values would do nothing but continue to rise beyond the original retail prices.  Unfortunately for him, he bought all of those engines, never ran them, and left the hobby figuring he would cash them in 20 years later.  Had he stayed in the hobby, he would have seen their values drop and could have liquidated the collection before they dropped too badly.  His investment scheme did not pay out as he had hoped.  I guess the moral of this story is to not buy something with the idea that it will increase in value or retain its original value.

With the secondary market that has become so oversupplied, finding jaw dropping  deals on just about everything is not all that uncommon. Actually, most experienced  buyers won't even respond these days untill you've taken a beating.  

What is surprising is how folks knowing the aftermarket is on life support, order new product fully aware they'll take a minimum 50%-60% depreaciation the day after it arrives.

As was noticed by all who found themselves breezing through a nearly deserted York meet this past spring, (been told worst attended ever). For the many valid reasons interest waned,  finding folks willing to buy really great stuff at all over the past several months seems to have become a far more difficult chore.

Joe

This is a depressing thread, though mostly pretty factual I am sure.

Rod

I find it amazing that so many look upon almost any purchase as being an 'investment' that will generate a financial profit. When I buy something expensive, such as a locomotive or a camera (I collect a certain brand of camera too.) I don't think of how much it will be worth in 'X' years time, I purchase them for the pleasure that they will give me now. I don't have any expectations as to how much I will receive should I ever sell the item. All of my locomotives are in regular revenue service on my layout, and that is how I value their worth. All of my cameras are in use too, some of which are even older than me.  I count the pleasure of being able to own and operate such fine machinery as being my profit on my 'investment'.  

The rule, dating back to when I re-entered O gauge in the early 1980s or so:  

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER purchase new toy trains as an investment.  On a rare occasion, you might purchase a rare/scarce item that may appreciate some in value, but it's certainly nothing you can count on.  By em' because you're enjoying the hobby, and for no other reason.

I have said this time and time again, never ever buy trains or any other so called collectable as an investment. Buy them because you will enjoy them and will use them.

One gentleman who shall remain nameless bought all the top of the line engines from about 1997 till 2010. He spent 10's of thousands of dollars but guess what he died at 53 never seeing one engine because he would not take it out of the box because it may ruin the value. His widow got 30 cents on the dollar via an auction house after all was said and done.  There's a life lesson in there and I hope some of you guys read it and learn. The same can be said about pre and post war except for certain items.

>>>I find it amazing that so many look upon almost any purchase as being an 'investment' that will generate a financial profit.<<

You could count on ome hand over the past 25 years in this hobby modern era items that have generated a genuine financial profit.

Whenever it has, it's short lived. 

In this hobby, increased value has never shown to be a growing collector interest. But rather, an increase based on avalability that evaporates with future production runs..

Joe  

For exemple.. take a look at this post in the Forum

25% over the MSR Price

The MSRP was 699$ in 2005.. and this guy is now asking 850$... (second hand)

He might be asking for $850, but he's not going to get it!  I see a new one on eBay for $699, and I doubt he'll get that.

Yes.  That's why I really prefer to purchase at a show where I can get "hands on" to check it out.

I've seen guys on eBay listing an item for far more than it's selling for, and it keeps appearing.  I have the the same Lionel 18072 in far better shape, and he's been trying to sell this one for a year. LIONEL 18072 K-4 TORPEDO W/TMCC

He has come down in price finally, but he's still not going to get that.  After reading that description, I'd go maybe $175 tops!

I would say they depreciate about the same as a used locomotive.  If you buy it, run it.  That's what they're made for.

Fred

Talk about phony dealers!

My friend and I went to our local hobby shop, name I won't mention, which is on S------ H, and my friend brought in his Father's Lionel #50 'Gang Car,' all in fairly good and new condition, with all three figures, in a box, with instruction sheet and a small tube of Lionel lubricating grease.

The unmentionable hobby shop had on its shelf a Lionel #50 'Gang' car, in poor condition, in a greasy looking, poor conditioned box, without an instruction sheet and no lube tube.

One of the fine Gentleman ***-ociates yells, to another ***-ociate,;  "Hey!" "LooK at this old 'Gang' car, this guy wants to sell us."  "Even the box is old and in lousy condition, compared to ours!"

The lying, stupid jerk, just gave himself and the 'JOINT' he works for, a bad reputation!!!!!!!

Needless to say, I have read other posts of forum members, on other forums, who, also, have had bad experiences with this, so called, fine establishment!!!!!

So, you never know with whom you are dealing with, until you have had an experience with, good and or bad, dealers!!!

Ralph-RJL 

Do some folks never get it?

A seller can ask anything he cares to for an item.  Nobody in the long history of toy trains has EVER been forced to buy something he didn't want, or to pay more for it than he was willing to pay.

I just don't understand why people continue to harp on someone's asking price, be it here or anywhere else.  Geez, if you don't want it and/or can't afford it, just move along until something you can afford makes an appearance.

Granted that many sellers don't know what they should ask for an item or what an item may be worth, but that's the seller's problem, not yours.

Not, everybody, knows what to do!

A word to the wise, may help some people!

RJL

Allan, I think you're making the mistake (as others have as well) that everyone here is "harping" or "whining" about asking prices... when all they're simply doing is making observations that are intended to help others in the hobby understand the REAL lay of the land out there.  That's not to imply that they can't or won't figure it out for themselves.  Many can and will.  But when all is said and done, EVERYONE here will greatly benefit (just a bit more quickly than they might have otherwise) from hearing about the road some of us here have walked over the years.

David

These are MTH PS2 diesels e.g. SD70ACe, SD40-2, and Dash 8...all Union Pacific.

If these are Premier, you might try posting them on the Forum for sale board at $275 each and evaluate the response.  Think all of these have about a $425 MSRP and an unused item as these should be attractive at about $275. Its about finding someone who has an interest in owning one or more of these as a new item at a reasonable price. There will always be someone out there who will want to bargain down your  offering citing varoius circumstances, the economy, warranty or whatever . Its up to you to decide if the offer is fair for what you are offering. Good Luck

 The MSRP was 699$ in 2005.. and this guy is now asking 850$... (second hand)

LIRR items are generally harder to find as there usually are not a great number of releases and when they are made, the runs may be quite small, maybe 50 units or so. The premier H-10s 2-8-0 in LIRR run was a small number of units probably around 50.

Again it comes down to whether there is someone that wants this item at the price or at an offer that the seller is willing to accept.

It would be too expensive for my choosing .

My LHS says that some guys won't even take their new engines out of the shipping boxes. I don't get that!

No, they are harping and whining.  No individual here is in a position to tell a seller how much he should be asking for an item, and no potential buyer with half a brain needs to be told how much he should pay.

The "Look what this fool is asking for item X on eBay" or "This guy on the forum is asking way above MSRP" doesn't provide an education; it's just a case of sour grapes and possibly belittling someone you don't even know.

Not too long ago, I paid significantly more than original MSRP for a locomotive that I had been looking for over the past two or more years.  Was that a stupid buy?  I sure don't think so because it is something I really wanted and couldn't find after searching for a long time.  And, I was able to afford it and even had advertised, over more than a year or so, that I would be willing to pay a healthy premium.  Paid off after many months, and I'm a happy camper.

Very recently, a fellow forum member who read that I was looking for Lionel quonset huts for my Army theme layout sent me one, new-in-box, for free.  I had offered to pay, but he turned me down.  Ya sure don't run into that kind of individual every day, in the hobby or outside of it!  But the story doesn't end there.  This same fellow later found that he had a whole lot more U.S. Army items in O gauge that he no longer wanted, so he also offered them all for free if I would just pay for the shipping.  I turned that down cold, and insisted that we come up with a fair value for the items.  He gave me a price, and I countered with an amount twice what he had quoted me because I felt his price was too low.  We finally reached an agreement and my check went off to him just yesterday.  You can be darn sure that if I can ever help this fellow hobbyist out, I'll do it in a heartbeat!

The point is, every buy/sell transaction is between two individuals.  Aside from those two involved parties, the transaction is nobody else's business. 

>>>Not, everybody, knows what to do!

A word to the wise, may help some people!

RJL<<

What I have never understood is why people buy the engine when it first comes out.  Within a year or two one can generally be had for40-60% of original selling price.  Of course if everyone did that there would never be any new engines.

I mostly agree with Allan - but I think it is kind of fun to point out really optimistic prices.  The archetypal deal is that $25,000 Challenger.  The guy has every right to ask his price, and we have every right to mention it if we want.  Someday, somebody will actually pay his price.

Rocky Mountaineer,

You are correct!

Actually, in addition to me making a statement, I'm also whining, to let newbies know that there are jerks out there who give model railroading a bad name by taking advantage of others!!!!!!

RJL

Just about every post has been about engines...what about rolling stock?

I expect there's some passenger cars and rare reefers, etc. that have gone for a good amount, although I recently bought 2 Atlas cars lettered for Seaboard with a retail price of approx $65 and got them for $45 each, that's about 30% off.  These 2 cars have been hard to find as far as I can tell, at least on the internet.

"Just about every post has been about engines...what about rolling stock?"

Some rolling stock will retain value because of the limited quantity offered.  On the other side of the coin, if some car is made in limited quantity and is not a desirable type of car or is decorated in a road name that only a limited number of people will find desirable, the value will only exist to those that want it and not to others.  In some instances, rolling stock will only be worth about half of the original value because of high availability and low demand.  Some cars will fall in the middle of that range and some will fall to the low end where you can barely give them away.  Some cars will bring more just because of the road name, type of car, or lack of availability.  When it comes down to it, rolling stock resale pricing can be all over the map depending on what car you have, what type of market it was intended for when originally released, and what someone is willing to pay for it now.

Allan, as big boys, let's just agree to disagree on this point.  You won't convince me to change my position, and you're entitled to yours.  Although I think "harping and whining" have negative connotations that don't belong in this discussion, since the OP specifically "asked" for our pricing thoughts on this topic in this thread.  Some folks choose to use a specific reference to substantiate their observation of current pricing trends.  You think that's harping and whining.  I don't.  Some folks love the art (if you can call it that) of haggling for "their price".  I don't.  Some folks complain when we make these observations about asking-prices, then they boast about the great deal they got by paying half the price somebody else paid a few years ago.  Situational ethics I guess.

The only thing all of us will probably agree on here is how heated a topic this becomes at times -- no matter how well-intentioned the OP is when they start these threads.

David

Engineer Joe...were you "talking" to me when you asked what engines I (someone) had??

Let me know, please.

I definitely don't have any CSX engines.

quote:

But it sure looks great on the dealer's inventory list that they still have those once-considered-rare train items in their possession.  Definitely gives the impression that they're a serious train shop.  But I still wouldn't pay $500 for a Santa Fe B-unit or $250 for a dining or vista dome car from that era.  Nor would most folks, IMHO.  But there was a time they would...  thus, my reference to them being "moment in time collectables" (sometimes driven by artificial dealer claims of low production runs).

Was it the dealers who were manipulating the market, or was it the manufacturers / importers?

Lionel started making "limited edition" pieces around 1973 or 1974. As I recall the first two were the Coke set, and the Gold Chessie Geep. Later they went on to putting items from the various "series" in sets, and not making them available for seperate sale. (still going on today) And lets not forget year-end deals, and uncataloged items.

 Sorry for any confusion. I was asking you. I'm trying to stay with CSX (roads) mainly and then some BNSF. Trouble for me is I like them all! CR, CN, CP,EMD, GE,.....................

Lionel was made in the US back then.

Collecteritis was running rampant back then and on into the early 90's.  I believe the phrase Thouy-McComas used in their book on Lionel/MPC was "milking the collector."

Rusty