How to research a rare Lionel set

A little bit of info.

https://www.liveauctioneers.co...ionel-1111-train-set

http://www.lionel-train-set.co...ype%20Locomotive.htm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1948-B...rksid=p2047675.l2557

Joe, Thank you.   I tried all of them and each set that came up as well as the links you provided are sets with the plastic 1001 not the die cast variation.

I have found a Lionel engine with a number of 1001; it is a 2-4-2 scout engine and the price range is extremely low! Depending on the version and the condition the price varies from $15.00 to $80.00 for both the engine & tender according to Greenberg's Price guide of 2016, page 62 under post war.

More info; set # 1111 from 1948, an 027 scout freight set, set contains; 1001, 1001T, 1002, 1005, 1007. Price for whole set is $225.00. Page 397 of Greenberg's pocket price guide. The only item that could be worth any real money is the 1002 gondola depending on the variation's color & lettering. Otherwise that set is not rare! Who ever told you it is rare is trying to drive the price up!!

Looked up pre war items and NO success. This set is only a post war set and I would say somewhat common set.

Lee Fritz

bum posted:

Joe, Thank you.   I tried all of them and each set that came up as well as the links you provided are sets with the plastic 1001 not the die cast variation.

All I can find is the plastic version as well.

Lee Fritz

You can see the steam loco pages in the Doyle book in Google books, some info on the diecast 1001 here:

https://books.google.com/books...0diecast&f=false

How about this:

http://www.lionel-train-set.com/1948/1948.htm 

Very first set listed for 1948:

Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains, 1945-1968, Volume 1, Motive Power and Rolling Stock (1991) has some information.

They theorize that the metal 1001 engines are factory mismarked 1101 locomotives.
The book says it is "scarce", but does not give any value.

Ed found the only mention of it that I can find other than Tandem.  Per Doyle, the locomotive is actually a 1101 that was silver stamped 1001 and placed in sets when the plastic locomotive was unavailable for whatever reason during production.  Philly, I was not told by anyone that this is rare to drive up the price, I based the rarity on Doyle and Tandem which is in print not hearsay.  Someone at sometime must have bought or sold one of these with the die-cast locomotive and a record of that purchase or sell is what I am looking for.  Hopefully I'll find something on it in the near future.  Thank you all for your research and replies.

I had the exact same Set, but I did not have the Set Box.  I did have the other internal boxes, including the transformer box, and all the paperwork.  The loco was the DIE CAST 1001 stamp.  I sold it over a year ago, and the most I could get was $225.  As far as finding anything in print about a SET with the Die Cast 1001 stamped loco, you won't find anything.  I spent months searching just you are trying to do now.  The loco is the only Rare item, and they do in fact exist.  The gondola doesn't matter for rarity, but it should be blue for it to be correct for the 1948 issued set.

TM's Lionel Price & Rarity Guide, Volume One, 1900-1969  (2003 Edition) agrees with C.W. Burfle's and Teledoc's replies.  

"Some diecast 1101s show up rubber-stamped 1001"

Gave it a 4 rarity rating (produced in lower numbers; good chance it will show up at a large meet) on a scale of 1 (common) to 5 (very difficult to find) with a $225 price in 2003 (take $75-$100 off that for 2016, my observation).  1111 set with plastic locomotive was given a 3 rarity rating (gaining in popularity and getting hard to find) and a $200 price in 2003.  Altogether worth $225-$250, my opinon based on 2016 market (independent of Teledoc's actual experience).

Update for future information.  I sold the complete set in my store on Saturday for $1,295.00 less a $20.00 Father's Day coupon that I had been advertising.  This was for the complete set with the box.   I have another partial set without the box but it still has the cast 1001 for sale and I'll let you know how that one goes when it is sold.   Thanks again for all of your input.

Nick

Do you accept returns?

What, me worry?

Or a phrase P.T. Barnum is associated with though there is no proof he actually said, "there's a sucker born every minute." Just maybe, the buyer needed that particular set to complete a collection. At $1295, as a seller, I would be like Pittsburgh's Mike Lange, "smiling like a butcher's dog. "

enjoy your trains...

bum posted:

Update for future information.  I sold the complete set in my store on Saturday for $1,295.00...

How did you come up with an asking price?

Rob.  I have a friend on one of the Facebook Lionel groups that sold his for $1350 a few years ago and that is what I based my asking price on.  Alfred, I do accept returns however he was able to see it and test it here in my store and was quite excited to find it.  John, he was not a sucker, he was a very nice well informed gentleman.  As he stated there are none of these for sale and if you wanted one to add to a collection, this was it.  I have a lot of very hard to find items here including dozens of complete postwar boxed sets and it attracts a lot of collectors.

Thank you all for your comments.

It is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

Or a phrase P.T. Barnum is associated with though there is no proof he actually said, "there's a sucker born every minute." Just maybe, the buyer needed that particular set to complete a collection. At $1295, as a seller, I would be like Pittsburgh's Mike Lange, "smiling like a butcher's dog. "

We can count on a comment like this every time someone reports the high price a collectable item yields.
One person's treasure is another persons junk.
Would I pay that sort of money for the set? ....... absolutely not. It just does not interest me that much. On the other hand, there are things I paid top dollar to acquire because I was actively looking for them.

Some folks understand that there is a concept called "limited demand".
While it is interesting to read that Bum found someone to pay such a price, that doesn't mean that the next person looking to obtain that set would pay anywhere near as much.
Hertz discussed this in his book:  "The Toy Collector"

I just sold that set complete with all the boxes & set box on Ebay for $134.

Eddie.  You sold the correct plastic 1001 locomotive set.  The set I sold had the die-cast 1101 locomotive that was silver rubber stamped 1001.  There is a huge difference between the two sets.  

Nick,

Congrats on the sale. I'll never understand why those comments are made either. I'm with C.W. Burfle, it's worth what someone is willing to pay.

Mike

Thank's Mike.  On with the rest of the day.

Above:

Nick,

Congrats on the sale.

It's too bad that every thread around here about a collectible item has to endure references to craziness and/or PT Barnum. They just will not let some of us have a conversation without jumping in to point out that they just don't understand.

Just another case of the "If you don't think like me, there's something wrong with you!" mentality that's prevalent in society! 

Jim

Jim Policastro posted:

Just another case of the "If you don't think like me, there's something wrong with you!" mentality that's prevalent in society! 

Jim

Isn't that a tu quoque argument, answering criticism with criticism?   

Just ribbing you a bit Jim. 

Bravo, a little scout loco gets some love.  Funny comments considering how many collectors would have paid dearly for a silver box car with red letters as opposed to the common blue lettering.  I bet no one called them a fool.  The same principle applies, it is a rare, one year only set, with even rarer rubber stamped numbers, worth every penny to the right collector. 

  I bet no one called them a fool.

On this board you'd loose that bet.
 

John Korling posted:

Jim Policastro posted:

Just another case of the "If you don't think like me, there's something wrong with you!" mentality that's prevalent in society! 

Jim

 

Isn't that a tu quoque argument, answering criticism with criticism?   

 

Just ribbing you a bit Jim. 

John,

 I knew I should have quit with PT Barnum! 

Jim

It has been kind of quiet around here lately, just thought I would "rile" things up a little.  But as for my Mike Lange reference, The "Pens" are (Lord) Stanley Cup Champions!

enjoy your trains...

It has been kind of quiet around here lately, just thought I would "rile" things up a little. 

I guess there is nothing like insulting people when one is bored.

James, I also sold one of the 3454 merchandise red letter cars on eBay in January of 2014.  It was not a pretty example, no box, and heavily scratched.  I started bids at $9.95 and it sold for $4,500.00 plus shipping with dozens of bidders going after it.  It is rare that something like either of these become available and those who have been waiting are willing to pay top dollar to get them.

bum posted:

James, I also sold one of the 3454 merchandise red letter cars on eBay in January of 2014.  It was not a pretty example, no box, and heavily scratched.  I started bids at $9.95 and it sold for $4,500.00 plus shipping with dozens of bidders going after it.  It is rare that something like either of these become available and those who have been waiting are willing to pay top dollar to get them.

 

Nice!  Do you take consignments, LOL!  I've never had such luck selling, but then again I only collect MPC "junk" and I'm glad for it.  It's more user friendly than valuable postwar collectables, and I like to run my trains.  Kidding aside, where is your shop, or are you eBay only? 

James, they will probably delete this for mentioning my place but it is Nick's Vintage Trains in Twinsburg, ohio, I have a site.

Thanks!  I won't tell....

Interesting thread by a hobby shop that deals in unique, ultra rare items and needs help with pricing?

aussteve posted:

Interesting thread by a hobby shop that deals in unique, ultra rare items and needs help with pricing?

Everyone has their own ideas & opinions on what's considered fair and reasonable when it comes to pricing on the secondary market.  The OP can chose to do whatever he wants in light of those ideas & opinions.

Items that are unique at times require help to determine a value.  Owning a vintage shop doesn't make one an expert.  There is a lot of knowledge out there and most are willing to share it just for the joy of being able to help.  I have helped many people determine values of their pieces and collections. I don't charge to do that, I just enjoy helping.   Equally I have been helped by those who have a greater knowledge than I and I will continue seeking information whenever the need arises.  The most enjoyable part of such a business is finding something that you have never seen before and researching it to find out as much information as possible and finally a value, the process sometimes requires help from others.  I have been buying and hoarding trains for 65 years most of which I haven't looked at for decades and in many cases I have never looked at them.  Three years ago it was hinted by my family that it is time to liquidate so I opened the store for that reason only.  I'm not doing this to earn a living, I've been retired for 13 years and this is a very enjoyable full time hobby.   Unfortunately for my family, I can't stop buying trains and my hoard is not much smaller than it was 3 years ago but I'm having fun and I can't wait to get in here every morning and go through another box.  

To everyone it pertains to, have a happy Father's Day.

bum posted:

 . . ... Twinsburg....... . .

I lived there as a kid, and thought it was a great little town.

.... small enough to model the town square .

  I often wonder how much of that "shuttered by 5"  town square I'd still recognize today? .. I checked it out on "street side" on a map program Changed some, business wise, but it could've been worse