I missed this one on eBay - 6417-25 Lionel Lines Gray

Wow. Definitely an oddball, and I don't think you can trace it to either a set or separate sale.

A friend of mine has a 6417 Pennsylvania porthole caboose in the same gray paint scheme. While it didn't go cheap (obviously some people caught it), it probably would have brought even bigger bucks had it been properly listed.

TRW

From the photo it looks like it is new of like new condition.  Very difficult to find in nice shape.  Box too boot.

Steve, Lady and Tex

The gray 6417-50 was from one 1954 set . However , that one is lettered for Lehigh Valley . The expensive variation is painted Tuscan Red. This caboose is lettered like a 6417-25 but is on a gray body so it is also from 1954. If it is factory (the LL or the PRR) then it would go for big $$$. However, it also could be a factory error and the bodies shipped to Madison Hardware where they were assembled into cars later over the years. Or it could be a post-factory lettered gray body...hard to tell. Someone later added the box for a -50 but it really should be a -25. My guess that is a post-factory item rather than a original esp if the selling price was small.

Peter

I think some one repainted that caboose.

$1,325.55 + shipping.

Well then, that's about the price for the tuscan LV 6417-50. I've never seen or read about this variation so hope its real or someone just got taken...

This may help, or cause MORE CONFUSION!!!

http://www.postwarlionel.com/caboose.html

Ralph

What was your bid $1325.50?

Like many here, I have been collecting postwar for many years and have never seen or heard of a Gray Pennsylvania 6417. However after looking at close-ups of the pictures on ebay, it sure looks real to me. I don't think it is a fake.

It's not PRR, it's Lionel Lines.

Oops you are right, I'm barking up the wrong tree. I'm guessing a paint/lettering sample. It looks too 'perfect' to be a fake.

Isn't that lettering heat stamped? Its nearly impossible to repaint a heat stamped item and reproduce the crisp edges on the lettering. Did Madison Hardware have a heat stamp press? Maybe someone at Lionel made this after hours. Hard to imagine a forger going to the trouble of making a few of these let alone a single copy.

Pete

Len Carparelli has a heat stamp press.

Might have had some grey plastic in the machine, and made a test shot?

I'm only guessing, but Lionel, in the Post War years, did produce special promotional items, such as for Sears Roebuck and Company, etc.

Maybe, this, either light gray, or light blue body, N5C cab., with what appears to be  maroon 'Lionel Lines' and Road #6417'?,' I can not make out the last number, with Lionel box item #6417-50, is one of them?

I believe, the cab., probably, does not belong in this box marked 6417-50?
BUT, that is all that I know.

Ralph

It has the 6417-25 LL stamp(in red) on the 6417-50 gray LV body, this has 1954 written all over it.

The box(6417-50), cab markings(although in red), and the non-illuminated chassis are all correct for the 1954 6417-50 car except for the cab color.

I looked this up in Greenberg:

The box(6417-50) is wrong, should be for LV, cab markings(although in red), and the non-illuminated chassis are all correct for the 1954 6417-25 car except for the cab color.

Rob,

I don't mean to argue, but the side showing in the color photo appears to have only a five digit road #6417'?,' I can't make out the last digit.

Where, on the cab. is it marked road #6417-25, on the bottom of the chassis?

Ralph

Here's another Web.-Site identifying Lionel Post War items, to cause more confusion!

http://www.tandem-associates.c...tm#NUMERICALPORTHOLE

Ralph

"64173"

It is the stamp from the regular 6417-50 6417-25 Lionel Lines made in 1954.  The slip tucked in to the right railing might be the clue as to whether this was a production sample.

Except for the Tuscan Red color, this is a one year only (1954) produced Lionel Lines N5C cab. road #64173, with its' correct box item #6417-25.

http://www.trainshoppe.com/cgi-bin/page2s?Rec=7511

Ralph

Rob,

Thank you for posting a larger and clearer picture, but I don't know what this cab. was produced for and it appears to be original.

There, is no information of this cab., on any of the two identifying Web.-Site pages, I posted.

This, maybe a special item, produced either as a prototype, or for a promotional sale?

You might have a GREAT find!!!!!

Rob, on the cabs.' lower right corner is that 'BLT 1153,' or '54'? 

Good Luck.

Ralph

I looked it up in Greenberg's and made corrections above.  I had them switched.

Too late, though, to own(and too much $$), I found it researching the seller in his completed listings.

Thank you Rob, for the close-up, but I still have NO CLUE, as to why this cab. was made!

From, this last close-up photo., it appears that there are NO operating coupler and draw-bar-arm, at this end with the paper folded in the lattice work.

The trucks have 'Bar Ends.'

Ralph

I think we are looking too hard for an answer. I believe it was just a gray painted shell meant for the Lehigh Valley production that was stamped with the 64173 for the common Lionel Lines version. They probably were in production at the same time and a employee stamped it Lionel by mistake and it was just boxed up and sent out. 

Or else it was intentional as a test run to see how red lettering would look on a gray cab for the Lehigh Valley version planned for later production.  The “Lionel Lines” and “Pennsylvania” lettering heat stamps were available to use as a test.  This could also help to explain the box as they probably kept it on the shelf until after the LV was produced and then just grabbed the nearest box, a #6417-50 box intended for the LV version, and out the door it went.  Perhaps the Gray Pennsy version identified above was also a test run using a slightly different shade of red lettering.    

Granted that is speculation but I have seen such an example.  About 35 years ago I had in my hand a 6468 B&O automobile box car in orange with white lettering which was identified by the seller as a test run for the 6468-25 New Haven.  I should have bought it but that seller also had the Tuscan LV and Erie Bay-window cabooses which I wanted more badly, bought taht day and still own.  This was a private sale with two other collectors with me as witnesses, one of whom is still a TCA member.

Bill

Bring it to York, & have it photographed.

It looks like this is more of a 6417-50 with the Lionel Lines stamp instead of LV.  I don't know what to call it except with the box, this looks like it.

All I can say to this is I'm so very glad I'm not a collector !

Not a big deal, really. But does he have any of the original magnesium leafing dies?

TRW

I think Chuck has the most likely explanation above.  I would be willing to bet a lot of "mistakes" got boxed up and sent out.  After all, it was just a toy train and who knew folks were going to go crazy over collecting these things.  I used to be one of those guys....still have some odd ball production in my collection but have no idea if they are legit or after market fakes....

Alan

Yes, have your caboose documented. It is a variation that has not been recorded in any collector guides yet. I was looking through Greenburgs guide to variation and rarity samples and no mention of your find. 

As Rob said above, he’s not the buyer.  He saw the auction after it ended.  So let’s hope whoever bought it will get it authenticated and documented.  Maybe it will show up at York for Ron Morris to photograph like Eddie suggested.

I still think it was an intentional paint test sample.

Bill

The postwar N5C caboose seems to be the favorite target for, shall we say, questionable paint schemes....witness the fake Lehigh Valley tuscan N5C, the fake Virginian N5C, both of which have appeared on several occasions at auction sites, and through well-known auction houses, where at least they were identified as fakes.  Anybody remember the 3562 "white" barrel cars? Let the buyer beware if there isn't any provenance for these so-called one-off originals.  Just sayin'................