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Not that there's anything wrong with 765, 611, or any of UP steam engines(when running) as you really can't get much better for mainline excursion engines.  But, if you had a choice to restore or build new(if that was possible).  Which Steam engine would you choose to use for mainline excursions?   This is just hypothetical, all academic you see, for fun.

 

For me I would to see a NYC L3 Mohawk.  The experts could chime in here but a Mohawk I think could take the grades you see on some of NS territory or where ever, a Hudson on the other hand was only good on water level route, even the B&A Hudsons with their smaller drivers needed helpers most of the time over the Berkshire mountains where as a L3 handled the 1.5% grade with ease.  What say you?

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Originally Posted by superwarp1:

Not that there's anything wrong with 765, 611, or any of UP steam engines(when running) as you really can't get much better for mainline excursion engines.  But, if you had a choice to restore or build new(if that was possible).  Which Steam engine would you choose to use for mainline excursions?   This is just hypothetical, all academic you see, for fun.

 

For me I would to see a NYC L3 Mohawk.  The experts could chime in here but a Mohawk I think could take the grades you see on some of NS territory or where ever, a Hudson on the other hand was only good on water level route, even the B&A Hudsons with their smaller drivers needed helpers most of the time over the Berkshire mountains where as a L3 handled the 1.5% grade with ease.  What say you?

Actually the NYC L4 Mohawk, on display in Elkhart, Indiana would be an excellent choice, especially since she has roller bearings on all axles.

 

Another excellent choice for top performance in all sorts of excursion service would be any one of the saved/displayed CB&Q O5 class Northerns, as they also have roller bearings on all axles.

For me I would to see a NYC L3 Mohawk.

 

 

I totally agree for these reasons: #1) Very few NYC locomotives were saved, #2) it would be great to see a NYC steam locomotive actually run, #3) I'm a NYC fan.

 

If I ever win the Mega-millions I will pay to have it restored. I'm sure the Strasburg guys could do a great job.

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by superwarp1:

Not that there's anything wrong with 765, 611, or any of UP steam engines(when running) as you really can't get much better for mainline excursion engines.  But, if you had a choice to restore or build new(if that was possible).  Which Steam engine would you choose to use for mainline excursions?   This is just hypothetical, all academic you see, for fun.

 

For me I would to see a NYC L3 Mohawk.  The experts could chime in here but a Mohawk I think could take the grades you see on some of NS territory or where ever, a Hudson on the other hand was only good on water level route, even the B&A Hudsons with their smaller drivers needed helpers most of the time over the Berkshire mountains where as a L3 handled the 1.5% grade with ease.  What say you?

Actually the NYC L4 Mohawk, on display in Elkhart, Indiana would be an excellent choice, especially since she has roller bearings on all axles.

 

Another excellent choice for top performance in all sorts of excursion service would be any one of the saved/displayed CB&Q O5 class Northerns, as they also have roller bearings on all axles.

Actually it's a L3  #3001

Originally Posted by AXP889:

I'm not really an NYC fan, but I'd love to see a streamlined Empire State Express.

 

No New York Central Hudsons of any kind exist.

 

Also, like the Zephyr above, it would be cool to see a "set" train, though I realize that would require restoring specific cars along with the engine

 

Again, neither the locomotive nor any of the cars exist.

 

 
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
 

Also, like the Zephyr above, it would be cool to see a "set" train, though I realize that would require restoring specific cars along with the engine

 

Again, neither the locomotive nor any of the cars exist.

 

This is as close as you can get, IRM's Nebraska Zephyr:

NZeph Highlands

The Mark Twain Zephyr still exists, (at Rail Merchants International?) but would require a couple of tons of money to purchase and restore.

 

Rusty

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Last edited by Rusty Traque
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by AXP889:

I'm not really an NYC fan, but I'd love to see a streamlined Empire State Express.

 

No New York Central Hudsons of any kind exist.

 

Also, like the Zephyr above, it would be cool to see a "set" train, though I realize that would require restoring specific cars along with the engine

 

Again, neither the locomotive nor any of the cars exist.

 

Well the OP did say if we had a chance to restore or build new.

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by superwarp1:

Not that there's anything wrong with 765, 611, or any of UP steam engines(when running) as you really can't get much better for mainline excursion engines.  But, if you had a choice to restore or build new(if that was possible).  Which Steam engine would you choose to use for mainline excursions?   This is just hypothetical, all academic you see, for fun.

 

For me I would to see a NYC L3 Mohawk.  The experts could chime in here but a Mohawk I think could take the grades you see on some of NS territory or where ever, a Hudson on the other hand was only good on water level route, even the B&A Hudsons with their smaller drivers needed helpers most of the time over the Berkshire mountains where as a L3 handled the 1.5% grade with ease.  What say you?

Actually the NYC L4 Mohawk, on display in Elkhart, Indiana would be an excellent choice, especially since she has roller bearings on all axles.

 

Another excellent choice for top performance in all sorts of excursion service would be any one of the saved/displayed CB&Q O5 class Northerns, as they also have roller bearings on all axles.

I thought the Mohawk in Elkhart was an L3a?

 

Also, the tender that is on location with her, was that a common version for the L3 & L4 Mohawks? Most of the photos I have seen had that tender behind the ealier L1's and L2'S.

 

In any event, it would be great to see that engine under steam again.

 

It would also be great to see Santa Fe 2912 under steam.

Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by AXP889:
...

Also, like the Zephyr above, it would be cool to see a "set" train, though I realize that would require restoring specific cars along with the engine

 

Again, neither the locomotive nor any of the cars exist.

 

 

Originally Posted by yankspride4:
...

Agreed! This or the Flying Yankee.

http://www.msichicago.org/what...bits/pioneer-zephyr/

 

unless they haven't updated their website in a while, the complete Pioneer Zephyr should still be sitting in Chicago Museum of Science & Industry.

 

zephyr_wide

 

cheers...gary

 

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My favorite is already running in excursion service:  SP 4449.  It is hard to beat the Daylight colors and streamlining.  

 

I think that a Southern PS-4 Pacific such as the one in Smithsonian would be a great candidate.  The green and gold colors are awesome.

 

Now for something off the wall.  I am a NH fan.  A NH I-5 Hudson would be great.

 

NH Joe

Originally Posted by overlandflyer:
Originally Posted by Hot Water:
Originally Posted by AXP889:
...

Also, like the Zephyr above, it would be cool to see a "set" train, though I realize that would require restoring specific cars along with the engine

 

Again, neither the locomotive nor any of the cars exist.

 

 

Originally Posted by yankspride4:
...

Agreed! This or the Flying Yankee.

http://www.msichicago.org/what...bits/pioneer-zephyr/

 

unless they haven't updated their website in a while, the complete Pioneer Zephyr should still be sitting in Chicago Museum of Science & Industry.

 

zephyr_wide

 

cheers...gary

 

It is still there. It is sitting in the main entrance by the ticket counters.

Originally Posted by BessemerSam:
Originally Posted by Steamer:

" This is just hypothetical, all academic you see, for fun."

 

well just for fun then, M1a 6755(there needs to be some big Pennsy Power running),one of the NYC 4-8-2s, and a GG1.

I agree with you about PRR M1b 6755 and one of the NYC 4-8-2's. Nickel Plate 759 would be nice, but we have 765 and will have 763. My above post will likely never happen. Now regarding the "if you could build one if possible," how about a Pennsy J1 2-10-4 (or two!), and an Erie Berkshire?

agreed! a PRR J Class would be the one to build, and this time maybe fix that funny looking firebox....

While I'd LOVE to see a PRR Big Jay...especially running up and down the Sandusky line, I gotta admit that a better choice for an excusion locomotive would be a newly built N&W Y6b. It's gonna be cheap, running in compound, and with 40-45 MPH speeds, it will be more than adequate.   Clearences will be little problem, and the engine weight of 611K (Y6-improved)  will not be too much, spread over 10 axles.  Plans still exist and we can copy most of the detail off 2156, the Y6a currently in Roanoke.  Foundries that can't handle really large frames, such as the PRR T1, or J1, could have an easier time with the two smaller frames of the Y6b. This design also features high percentage of roller bearings...even the eccentric rod ends on the last few. Power will be more than adequate with 5600 DBHP at 25 MPH, and 170 K TE Simple starting.  Indeed, on excursion trains you could do a full compound start, with the booster valve partially open.  We had our chance to save two originals back in the '70s, but blew it royally, right in Roanoke!  Now's the time to right this wrong ! U-rah! 

Among the ones that exist today:
  • SRR 1401, removed from the Smithsonian and run with a SRR-painted consist of heavyweights (like in the days of the old SRR steam program)
  • SP 4460, running pretty much anywhere on the old SP, but at least once double-headed with 4449 (which would have to lettered back to it's postwar markings)
  • Any Milwaukee Road electric running again over a rebuilt section of the old Pacific Extension (yeah, an utter pipe dream, I know)
 
Originally Posted by AXP889:

I'm not really an NYC fan, but I'd love to see a streamlined Empire State Express.

New built, of course. I'm the same way, I've never been a big NYC fan but I must admit it'd be great to see a Hudson along the original water level route.

I believe that there are two separate answers required here. One is, what engine should have been preserved or what engine would we like to see built new?

The second question is: "What engine would you like to see built or new and used in excursion service?"

UNRESTRICTED excursion service, done at a profit so as to be self sustaining, I believe requires a locomotive with the following characteristics:

1) An adhesive weight (weight on drivers) of between 240,000 and 280,000 lb. Almost all mainlines and principal branches can now accommodate individual axle loads of 60,000 lb. per axle, but some non principal lines do not like to see individual axle loads exceeding 70,000 lb. per axle.

2) Four driving axles for the required tractive effort to use on a train of perhaps 15-20 cars, and for moderate grades, say up to 1.5%, depending on driving wheel size.

3) Driving axle diameter in the range of 69"-72". This driver size permits the loco to reach the speed on a grade where its tractive effort is high enough to surmount the grade and also haul the train. The driver rigid wheelbase of slightly less than 19 feet would permit operation on most routes/curvature, etc. (One or more lateral motion devices would improve access on locos with slightly higher drivers.) 

4) A tender with swivel trucks as opposed to a centipede type.

5) Width and height that is "more restrictive", say height up to about 15'-10" and width of less than 10'-6", along with medium sized drivers such that the main and side rods would clear station platforms, etc.

So the following designs can be disqualified:

B&LE 2-10-4-High adhesive weight and long rigid wheelbase

PRR T1-Drivers too tall (but great for high speeds!) and rigid wheelbase too long

PRR J1-Axle loading too high and rigid wheelbase too long

NYC J Hudson-Insufficient adhesive weight for use on grades and drivers too tall for excursion speeds

N&W Y6 Drivers too small, front cylinders too large, and main and side rod arc too low for clearance at many locations

The qualification to the above is that, by limiting the routes run, almost all engines can do well. For example, UP 844 with high drivers and centipede tender does very well on major mainlines and a lot of UP. So will the Big Boy. SP #4449 with high drivers, but a booster, does well where its height permits operation. A PRR K4 and a NYC Hudson would do well on the more level stretches of track, and a NYC Hudson could certainly haul 16 cars on level or nearly level track, so that excursion would be profitable.

The list of what is now running, with a few three driving axle exceptions in specific service, meets all of the requirements identified above. The "sweet spot" seems to be driver size and four axles, and cylinder diameter and stroke are also factors.

Sounds like a NYCS L3a for the existing locomotive.  And we know just where to go and get one.  The tender will need a ton of work to get it back to "NYCS" specs. OTOH, this really would be a well rounded excursion chooch.  As for the "new" built locomotive, here's one that doesn't get mentioned every day....A Central J2 !    75 inchers solve the high driver issue, and a booster gives you the punch at starting and on grades.  The latest J2s had J3 sized sand domes and J1 hand-me -down tenders,  so good looks could be assured.  This engine would fit nearly anywhere, and is certainly not too heavy for contemporary trackage.   Cost to build...about $6 to $7 million, using the PRR T1 formula. This is certainly doable, but getting all the Central guys to agree on it would be nearly impossible !

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