Improving Smoke Output in a Lionel C420

Nick,

 

I was in the same place you are a year ago with my Lionel BNSF Dash 8 w/TMCC. I performed the mod Lionel had on youtube and while it was better I wanted more.

 

Forum member Rod Stewart had a post where he put a 16 ohm MTH resistor in some of his TMCC locomotives and it really helped. I went to my lhs and bought a few at seventy-five cents each.

 

I have not had any issues "yet" and it really smokes!!  I actually turn it off sometimes!

 

Good Luck!!

Jeff,

 

That is the type of feedback I was hoping for.  Do you know the part number for that resistor?

Sorry Nick I don't. I just asked for MTH smoke resistors. Some may tell you not to go that far and use a Lionel 18 ohm... Your choice.

 

And it does go through smoke fluid!!

 

 

MTH Element is AI-0000018 16 ohms.  G

Hello guys,

 

Jeff's engine has a 27 ohm smoke unit in it. The lowest I would go is a 20 ohm, and I still think that's too much. I would never put an 18 or 16 ohm resistor in a 27 ohm smoke unit. I've tested this on my workbench many times and found the 18 ohm resistor too almost be on fire. If someone asks me for more smoke in a 27 ohm unit, I

usually install a 24 ohm resistor. Just my honest opinion.

 

Here's the part numbers for the 24 ohm and 20 ohm resistors

also this here's a photo of what they look like.

 

part number 24 ohm 691RES3W24

part number 20 ohm 691RES3W20

 

Thanks,

Alex

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 YES THERE AREN'T WIRE WOUND, THEY WORK GREAT

Alex - My tester said it was a 16 ohm...

 

Top resistor is the Lionel I removed, bottom is the MTH I added.

Hi Jeff,  that makes all the difference. I thought you said you put a 16 ohm resistor in a 27 ohm smoke unit. Sorry my fault. lol

 

Alex

I don't need that kind of smoke for diesels, I like them just to have a small amount, like in real life.  For steamers, I bought some 20 and 22 ohm wirewound resistors from Digikey to equip those, it does help in the Lionel environment.  The MTH stuff doesn't need any help.

 

He did and so have others.  Results vary but I don't think those coated resistors work as well.

In the end, with TMCC Command your only getting 9-12V bottom Sinewave to the resistor.  In conventional you should get full sinewave but engines can run on 7-8VAC track voltage so the smoke unit gets less power.

 

MTH PS-1 smoke units run on 10-12VDC on the 16 ohms fine and the 2nd is kicked in above 12VDC to limit current by making resistance 32ohms.  12VDC has more heating value than the 9-12V Bottom sine wave.  G

Hi GGG,

 

I totally agree with you about the volts going to the resistor, I'm still in the learning stage of this. How come when I install a 18 ohm resistor in a 27 ohm unit, the resistor glows a very bright red, almost looks like it's going too light on fire. If I install a 24 or 20 ohm I don't get that glow from the resistor.

 

Unless I tame the 18 ohm resistor with a diode

 

Thanks,

Alex

Alex,

 

Given the waveform of the TMCC output, the diode would either do almost nothing, or totally eliminate the smoke.  The standard smoke output is a half-wave signal, exactly what you'd get by just using a diode.

 

I tried the MTH 16 ohm resistor in a TMCC locomotive to replace the 27 ohm resistor.  It smoked up a storm, but the triac runs pretty hot, so if you're going this route, I'd add a heatsink to the triac.  It does use up the smoke fluid in a hurry!.

 

Here's the waveforms from the smoke output in normal and boosted mode.  I diode in one direction in normal mode would totally kill the smoke output, in the other way, it would barely be noticed.

 

Boosted Mode

 

 

Normal Mode

 

That's exactly what I'm talking about, it runs very very hot and cherry red. Also you will use a large  bottle  of smoke fluid in about three days.

 

Yes the diode kills the smoke,this is why I only would use a 20 or 24 ohm resistor

I don't have the worry about a red hot resistor using a huge amount of smoke fluid

and on the other hand I don't have to use a diode which kills and the resistor totally.

 

Thank,

Alex

 

 

I'm with you on this one Alex, I liked the 16 ohm for "demo" smoke, but I wouldn't want to live with it.  The 20 produces plenty of smoke, and is a substantial upgrade from the 27 ohm stock resistor.  The triac gets pretty warm, but it doesn't appear to approach it's operating limits with the 20 ohm resistor, I guesstimate it's average current at around 1/2 amp with 18 volts on the track, so the triac is dropping about 1/2 a watt.  I'd still be tempted to bolt some small heatsink onto it for that mod.

 

Isn't that TRIAC a 4 amp unit?  The MTH unit doesn't go through a bottle of fluid in 3 days.  The Rectifier on the MTH unit is rated at 1 amp.  At 12 volts you would pull .75amps.  12/16.  12V x .75 = 9watts.

 

Seems the Lionel unit should use less power even at 16 ohms, unless a dc component is present.

 

Probably why Lionel went to 6 and 8 ohm resistors and use an ACREG that produces 8VAC.

 

I agree an intermediate might be nicer, frankly I think going to some constant DC regulator that is powered by the triac but produces a DC constant output would be a better solution.  G

 

My K-line with  a 27 ohm fan driven unit and TMCC, produces almost no smoke in conventional, with the train running nicely at 8V.  In Command it produces a nice amount of smoke.

George, the triac is rated at 4 amps when properly heatsinked, however it'll handle MUCH less with no heatsink.

 

I confess that I don't worry about smoke production in conventional, I run pretty exclusively command.

 

 

GunrunnerJohn,

What is the digikey part number of the 20 ohm wire-wound resistor?  I'm thinking if I should use one of those resistors, that should help increase my smoke output, but not compromise the integrity of my triac.

These are the two that I ordered.  I have tried the 20, and I figured that I'd get some more of those and the 22 ohm ones and see if I can tell the difference.  I'm trying to get decent smoke but not overwork the triac.

 

20 Ohm 3W Wirewound (ceramic)

 

22 Ohm 3W Wirewound (ceramic)

Hopefully not a dumb question - On these ceramic resistors - do you have to expose the inner wiring?? - Have replaced some Lionel one's and they have exposed wiring around the core. Thanks

The 20's worked fine without it.  The only thing I noticed is it took several seconds to start the smoke, I normally just hold the boost for a couple seconds when the smoke starts.  Once they're hot, they seem to work just like the exposed wire ones.  I've thought of trying to crack the ceramic off one to see what's in there.

 

Crack one open John!!

Pretty much what I expected to find.  This is a 22 ohm ceramic from Digikey.

 

 

OK, now I'm curious to see if there is a difference in the smoke performance coated to uncoated.

 

Thanks John. 

Time for you to buy some of the resistors and do some testing.

 

John, What length is the element?  End to end, not the wire.  Thanks G

5/8" allowing for a sharp bend of the wire right at the end.  Fits easily into a Lionel smoke unit.

OK, my curiosity just ended!! 

You're too easy!

 

I think I came up with the perfect way to take the ceramic off these resistors.  The Dremel wire wheel seems to zap the ceramic and leave the resistor intact, and it's very quick.  I did a few to test, it was only a couple of minutes each and I had a perfect uncoated resistor.

 

Now I know where to get any value of smoke resistor for "custom" tuning the smoke output.

 

I just don't have the time!!  130+ plus nights in a hotel room take away alot of my time. Maybe once I retire and that's still a long way to go!

Something you may want to try:

 

http://www.tuveson.com/hybrid-...id_smoke_element.htm 

 

 

 

 

Carl, that looks like a lot more work than my two minute exercise.   I tried one of the stripped resistors, smoke like a burning house!

 

The object of my experiment was to improve the fluid delivery to the element and make the element run cooler prolonging the life of the element.

No heat is lost to a  resistor core it all goes to heating the fluid.

You can also tweak the resistance for optimum life and smoke.  

Hi John,
A couple if quick question.
How do you "zap" the ceramic coating?
Can you explain your technique with a few more words.
Dremel wheel. Brass or Stainless?
What speed/Rpm?

Hoping to "zap" the 30 ohm ceramic resister in my kids Polar Express with the idea of getting a little more smoke at less than Warp 3 speeds.

But only have 8ohm wire wound spares so nothing to practice on. And kids will be bummed if I screw it up.
Do you think that removing the coating would work better than adding a string of diode voltage droppers? I know the diodes would improve the passenger car lighting.
Thinking of doing both.
Might try Charles Ro on way home tomorrow. see if they have wire wound ones in the 18-23 ohm range. just in case.

Otherwise only a matter of time before a major high speed  train wreck takes out the ceramic village. kids love their smoke. Good thing I replaced the 120v incandescent a with LEDs. At least they won't get electrocuted at the same time.

Aha!!!  Thanks John!!

I "zap" the ceramic coating with the Dremel wire wheel.  It takes off the coating like magic, and doesn't seem to have any effect on the nichrome wire.  I've done half a dozen and all came out perfect.  It's actually very quick, a couple of minutes max.

 

I buy mine in bulk from DigiKey, the 22 ohm ones were 40 cents/ea for ten of them.  22 ohms is a nice upgrade from the higher resistance ones and still doesn't put too great a load on the TMCC electronics, or go crazy with smoke in conventional operation.  I've tried them as low as 16 ohms, but those are a bit much.

 

Truthfully, I don't know that removing the coating on that resistor will do much, it's the value change that makes the difference.  The diode strings will probably make a bigger difference.  The one thing that taking the ceramic off does is get the smoke going a bit quicker.

 

 

Here's a bit different question: What is the material that the element sits on? Is it easy to obtain? Thanks!

Amos - Are you talking about the batting? It's available from several forum members in a precut or in strands. Some, like myself, use tiki torch wicks.

Thanks Jeff. That's great news as I have a bunch of those torches in my shed-thanks again.

You will want to pull the wick apart a little, fluff it up, and make sure you don't block the air holes and make sure the element depresses into the batting.

 

Good Luck!