Improving Smoke Output in a Lionel C420

I tried retrofitting my C420 with the aforementioned 20 ohm resistor that is available through Digikey.  I am happy to report the new element improved smoke output in my locomotive significantly! 

Thank you for all the advice.

As you are the OP, it's good that we addressed the issue you were asking about.

From GGG: "Probably why Lionel went to 6 and 8 ohm resistors and use an ACREG that produces 8VAC."

 

This is of interest to me as I too have been following this thread. I  bought some of the 20,22, and 24 ohm resistors recommended in this thread. I have a Legacy SD 70. I put a 22 ohm in it and the results yielded not a satisfactory result. I went back and ohm-med the original resistor only to find it is a 6 ohm unit and not the 27 I had expected.I'm not really sure which way to go now. I do have the voltage mentioned earlier going to the resister. It gets warm(approx. 90 degrees) but not hot enough to smoke. Suggestions or directions would be appreciated. This is a part of this hobby that I really like.

 I will also note that I have multiple SD 70 and  AC(?) 6000 engines and the 6000"s outperform the SD 70's in the smoke dept.

 I suspect I will need to get the specs on the stock resistor for the SD 70's and "play" from there.

You have to post a pic!!!

I would inspect the smoke unit and make sure the batting isn't burned and that the resistor sits in the batting.  The manual should have a instructions how to set smoke output for L, M or High.  You can set High.  Your unit uses the ACREG to power the resistor, so the 27ohm is moving in the wrong direction.  Maybe the ACREG is bad.  G

If the resistor isn't getting hot, my vote is for the regulator board.  The ones that were simply shrink-wrapped and not connected to the chassis for a heatsink seem to die with regularity, probably because they're handling more current than the bare part can manage over the long term.

 

I had a unit in for repair that had the AC Reg board. It was only getting about 1.5 volts to the smoke resistor. Ended up that the AC Reg board which was mounted to the frame didn't have an insulating bushing between the board and the mounting screw. Inside the mounting hole were 3 tiny little metal tabs and the screw was touching these shorting out the AC Reg. I replaced the Board and added a bushing to keep it from being grounded.

That will do it too!

 

I had said earlier that the voltage IS getting to the resistor.I also said I found out that the smoke element is a 6 ohm  and not 27 as previously thought.

 The stock(6 ohm) will get hot and smoke-it just isn't as much as I would like nor is it as mstrong as the AC 6000'S that I have. Both of my SD 70's are like this-they smoke but not as strong as I would like; therefore, the desire to enhance their output. My guess is trying a different element-down from the factory resistor it came with. I just am not familier enough with these resistors to know what I should try that may heat up better than the 6 ohm. I know it needs to drop I just don't know the  proper specs on what I should look for.

   Thanks guys-and GGG- it was a relief to me when you mentioned the 6 ohm unit as that was what mine ohmed at even though I thought it had a 27 in it! I then understood why it didn't heat as expected! I bought 10 each of the 20,22, and 24 ohm resistors. Oh well, I'll keep them and use them on something else in the future. I ordered from Digikey- cheap-not much lost at all.

First off, if there is a 6 ohm resistor in there and it's not getting hot enough, the top suspect IS the regulator board!  Reducing the value of that resistor is a bad idea, as the regulator board is running near it's limits powering that resistor.  If it's not getting hot enough, there is something else wrong.

 

I think you should consider other ways of improving the smoke if that's your goal.  FWIW, diesels shouldn't be smoking that much anyway, maybe it's just prototypical.

 

Have you done what I have said?  Make sure the resistor (6ohm) is down in the batting.  Program smoke output to high.

 

If you still don't like it, I would inspect the air intake and possibly mod it like the Lionel Video.  Bore a slightly larger hole at the intake.  Make sure impeller is rotating properly, with clear air path through the batting.  They may help.  G

GGG: Thanks again for your input. If I install the original stock 6 ohm resistor in new batting it will smoke very well initially. Once I've used it a few times the smoke will reduce and upon opening it up I'll find the element down in the batting as it was installed;however, the batting is charred heavily around the element and is stuck to the element as well.

  I know the voltage to the unit is correct because I've tested it at each stage and it rises accordingly while changing from Lo-Med-Hi. The AC Reg is also relatively new.

   I am going to watch the video you suggest and give that mod you talked about a try. Thank you.

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 Gunner wrote: the regulator board is running near it's limits powering that resistor. 

  The element(resistor) in it is the original stock 6 ohm that Lionel put in it. If it's "running near it's limits" then that's what Lionel intended. My diesel ac 6000's pour smoke out in their stock untouched form. I am not one who is concerned with trying to emulate real world railroading. I like plenty of smoke and I particularly like the look on kids' faces when it suddenly starts pouring out. I don't want it to be hardly noticeable. It's a very cool feature to me.

CLASSIC sign of not enough smoke fluid, or the regulator has died shorted and you're getting way too much heat.  If it was working properly, and you kept it wet, the wick should not char.

 

Since Amos states his smoke works on Lo-Med-Hi I would say the regulator is OK. I believe  he is not adding enough fluid.

 

Bill

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Since Amos states his smoke works on Lo-Med-Hi I would say the regulator is OK."

 

Boxcar-you got it! I always do a substantial amount of testing before asking for help and I see you picked up on my testing the AC Reg.. I am gonna' do the Lionel mod and I'll also use your more fluid suggestion. Thanks. One thing, too. Both of my SD 70's do this so the fix should cure both!

In that case, pick column A, more smoke fluid.

 

What batting are you using.  That may also be an issue.  At least we have narrowed this down.  G

I'm using wick material from a Tiki Torch as I believe you suggested.

I don't think it was me.  Others have suggested it, and each have their own favorites.   G

It was Jeff T. that suggested Tiki Wicking for batting.what do you recommend?

Guilty as charged!!!  I have it in several of my locomotives with no issues whatsoever. My local hardware store is much closer than my local hobby shop.

I would go with more fluid.  Pre wet it as you rebuild to get a feel for how many drops are need with Tiki Wick without flooding.  That way you can determine if you put to little, and also have an upper limit.  G

ok. I'll post the results when I get it done. Didn't have much time last night but I drilled the 1/4" hole in the board.. I still have to put the 6 ohm res. back onto the board and then reassemble. Thanks guys.

Well GGG-I did the mod to the unit and saturated the wicking as you suggested.It works wonderfully now!The soaking of the wicking was an education. Thanks again for your help.

Glad to hear!!!  All you read and hear is do not overfill!!  It took me awhile to realize you have to add more fluid!!

 

Congrats!  Let's see as pic!!

 

 

 

My TMCC loco with the Lionel modification and a MTH resistor.

You are welcome, great too hear.  G

Better take that one into the shop, it's about to blow an engine!

 

John - That's perfect!! 

 

In my time on OGR I certainly see at least two types of posters.

 

A) Have layout

 

B) Holiday runners

 

In my observations the layout guys are a little more about realism and authenticity, the holiday runners like myself get a limited time to run/play with our trains, don't really care about realism and just want to smoke out the house!!

 

I will say, it is nice to have a loco where I have to turn off the smoke rather than hitting the button constantly for more smoke! 

I can still smell the smoke in my shop from testing the last steamer.

 

just curious did you drill your fan intake hole 1 to 2 size bigger yet?..that will really put out the smoke..thats what Mike reagen showed in his youtube video..heres a mod lionel smoke unit with stock 27mh heating element in it..second video is with a mod mth smoke unit..

On the Dockside switcher, the intake isn't like a standard puffer, no way to easily drill on that.

 

I modded my TMCC smoke unit with a MTH resistor and it smokes nowhere near that second video. My guess is there's a little more than a resistor swap and an intake hole enlarged there.

 

That might actually be more smoke than I would want! 

For TMCC, I recommend not going below about 22 ohms for the smoke unit.  With a 22 ohm resistor, the smoke triac on the R2LC gets pretty warm, but well within it's ratings.  As a test, I put a 16 ohm MTH resistor across the smoke output on the bench.  Within a couple of minutes, the triac was over 100C according to my temperature probe!  That's too hot, and will likely kill it in short order!

lol..Id left both resistors in both smoke units stock..inlarged the fan intake also bump up 1 size bigger on the exhaust hole..with me more smoke the better i like it...we are after realistic sounds and might as well have the smoke too...since real steamers puts it out..

I installed a hybrid in my AF Mallet similar to what Carl T described in his article.  Here's a link to it running recently - -Dec 14, 2013 at the B&O Museum