Inclines / Declines ??

Click on the image to access a video of a consist on one of my grades, 3.8%.  The down without speed control can be tricky.   An Atlas GP7 and (4) Atlas SW9's.  The bridge,  the curve before the bridge and another 7 ft ahead of the curve account for a 14 ft grade that gains about 6 "  The first (4) hoppers are Atlas diecast and the rest are weighted. This consist draws about 6 amps.  The GP7 does have speed control, but the SW9's do not.

I figure, **** the torpedoes, full speed ahead.  I need to get up 2 3/4" in 84".  To get there, I'm planning 4% for 48" and 3% for 24", so I'm getting to 2 3/4" in 6' (72").  To extend it another 12" is too complicated given available retail risers.  I figure that's about an average of 3.4%.  Am I asking for trouble?

 

I am thinking about having a slight incline (½ inch) on the main line curves leading up toward the turnouts - it would be the outer right tracks after the big turns in the photo.  Then, have perfectly flat track at the turnouts on the mains.  And then restart my inclines to the left of the turnouts on the mains.  This would mean the reversing track would also have a ½ inch incline between turnouts.  This gets my incline on the mains down to 2.2%.  But is it OK to have a slight incline, flatten out for turnouts and then restart a slightly more aggressive incline after the turnouts??  

 

Also – does anyone know a good learning source (ideally, a DVD) for doing cookie cutter inclines? I understand the basic principles, but assuming it’s a good idea to do the inclines I mentioned above, I’m not confident on how to go about cutting up the tabletop to get smooth inclines on the mains that flatten out at turnouts and then restart the inclines after turnouts AND at the same time do my reversing loop ½ inch incline.  I’m using ½ plywood under ½ homasote, open grid benchwork so the whole thing is floating on risers.  Also attached a photo of the actual layout (obviously, in pieces at this point) but NOTE - the outer-most loop is not a main line, it's a branch off the main that will also incline to the upper level.

 

Please disregard the things in the schematic that don’t make sense – there are other levels to the track plan and I eliminated stuff for ease of viewing.

 

Thanks.    

Here is a crude illustration (I think) of cookie cutter.  The trick is to make sure the cuts are long enough to make a smooth VERTICAL bend in the wood.  Before you tie everything down make a couple of passes with your longest engine coupled to your longest rail car and see how it likes what you are attempting.  Don't rush it!  Have fun.  Russ

 

 

Hey, thanks Russ! 

 

I get the basic principle (although your diagram is very helpful), but for my purposes, I was hoping for a reference guide or DVD, as I plan to do several things in parallel and not exactly sure or comfortable on how to make it all work.  

 

Basically, I’d be making several cuts to the same piece of plywood/homasote to create three different inclines (each main and the track going to upper loop) and the reversing loop incline.  Not entirely sure how to cut the tabletop to achieve all this.  Also not sure how to ensure smooth incline transitions and make sure that I get the plywood under the turnouts to be perfectly flat. 

 

Scoured Youtube for a “how to” but struck out.  Assume it’s just going to be trial and error, but given this forum is so full of helpful people, thought maybe someone here could offer advice or a reference source?  

 

Thanks. 

 

Peter

Peter - post the portion of your track plan that is giving you some concern.  The folks here are most helpful and will give ya' lots of help.    Russ

The area I’m trying to work through is represented in the photos and diagram below.  Trying to create inclines so that the right-hand main line tracks rise up-and-over where they cross over themselves.  

 

Basically, there is a turnout on the outer left side of the diagram that separates into a black and purple line.  The purple line will incline to the upper level.  The black line, and other black line inside it are the 081 and 072 mains.  The 072 main has the reversing loop (it creates that teardrop looking shape).  So I need to incline the reversing loop ½ inch going from left to right.  And I need to escalate the double mains around the big turn the same ½ inch.  Then go perfectly flat after the big turn for the right-side turnouts.  And then start inclining again for the up and over.

 

Just curious if this makes sense.  And, of course, looking for any tips or advice on how to do this – or any reference material on how to do cookie cutting.

 

Thanks      

Peter, hopefully this is what you are looking for.  Russ

  

 

This does not have to be cut from a single piece.  You can cut plywood radius pieces that work like the sectional track pieces.

 

 

I googled 'cookie cutter model railroad' in images and came up with a decent example I think.  Russ

 

Hey Russ - thanks again! I honestly don't understand what those yellow lines represent but I get the basic idea of what to do. Ironically, I always hesitate to post any photos or diagrams of my layout plan because every time I do, it seems no one ever comes back to comment. Don't understand it, but it always happens. So glad for your continued helpful input. Also wanted to let anyone else know that is also looking for cookie cutter references that if you YouTube the exact phrase Russ did on Google, you won't get references or how-to videos, but it will pull up a couple examples. Peter

The yellow lines are cut lines with your saber saw, the trick is to keep them yellow and NOT RED!   Have fun!  Russ

 

Peter,

 

You have started a very intresting thread. I've enjoyed reading how forum members have explain to you and others how to compute grades, make sure you have a vertical curves at the transtion from horizontal track to vertical incline track (unless you would like a steam engines cow catcher to short out your train), talk about maximum grades and much more. Yes I have used the 2 and 4 foot long levels with wooden block under the end of the level to keep a constant even grade. First before explain to you all about the track plan using CADRAIL software above of Room 1 of THE GOSHEN BEND, let me tell you who I am.  I'm a 64 year old civil engineer who has designed or over saw the design of more then 250 bridge across Vermont and  still doing so. Need less to say I have calculated a few grades and did so when I was designing "The Goshen Bend" which has a maxinum grade of 3.25% (3.25 inches over 100 inches). The Elevations next to the town names is the distance above the floor and rounded to the neares inch. The actual rise is 14 inches and with the transtion vertial curve from Brandon to Rutland plate girder bridge before the spur to Granvile takes 38 feet along the main line. The track is Gargrave with 042 curves (except the inside track in the Town of Goshen) and I typical run trains from 5 to 10 cars. The over all size of this room is 11 ft x 21 feet. From the left table edge to the edge of the table just right of Goshen is 17'-0" and is the part of phase one in 1987 17'x4' table.

  

 

Between the Omya tank cars and the plasticvile staion is a 24" long by 15" wide access hole which is hidden from view by the ridge behind the Omya cars.

 

If you have the room and can flaten out your grades then go for in but 3.25% works for me with no problums. I use MTH Z4000 and DCS control for two MTH steamers and 14 TMCC engines.

 

Sherward

 

PS..  Now I have got to compute some grades for a bridge in St Johnsbury, VT on Monday. Sure is easyer now computing vertical roadway and track elevations with excel tempates I wrote in the late 80s today over using a siderule as I did in the 70s.

 

 

 

 

I read the whole thread waiting to see if anyone mentioned RRTrack and their grade generator. Since I didn't see it, I thought I bring it up. In RRTrack, you set the height at the start of the grade and then you pick where you need the grade to end. The system then generates the grade, tells you the percentage, and labels the height of the track at either the center of the rail piece, or at the junction with the next track...you decide. My railroad has one grade at about 2.0% and the other with a little less than 2. Both work their way into a O-96 curve. I used the height for the intermediate part of the grade before the curve from the software, and then used a string line from this point upwards and downwards to determine the riser heights for the rest. It came out to a very smooth transition. I'm using L-girder with joists, cleats and risers so making elevated portions is no more difficult than laying subroadbed in the flat.

Trainman2001- glad you posted this as I have a question about what you said. I am using L girder open grid benchwork with risers and cleats. Using RR-track too. Just started cookie cutting this weekend. I cut into the plywood and then l laid on the floor under the benchwork to start adjusting the incline / risers etc. Kind of hard to make perfectly smooth inclines/declines that way so decided there must be a better way. So I took the plywood off the benchwork and replaced it with a paper form that I laid on top of the joists to see exactly where the inclining roadbed would be. I then started adjusting risers from on top, rather than by laying on my back underneath. Once risers are all set I plan to put the plywood back on the benchwork. Can you tell me how you are creating inclines/declines with your set up? Sounds like I'm still doing it the hard way based on your post. Thanks!

I am helping a friend design his railroad and making use of RR-Track.  The railroad is a twice-around layout in a very odd-shaped room.  As a result, I am making effective use of RR-Track's grade calculator.  It's very handy.  The worst grade (ascending) is about 3.5%.  I'm not too worried about the descent at this point, although some fidgeting with the risers might be required.  The descent is on a curve and my friend runs 20" passenger cars.  Minimum curves are O72.

 

While a number of tables have already been constructed (the 8' long 10 track passenger station for example), we are still making adjustments to the paper plan.

 

We will probably cut the curved subroadbed in as large a piece as possible.

 

George

AnyRail track planning software has a convenient "smooth slope" feature which creates a steady grade between track points where you have set the heights. It will also display grades and heights at different places along the track. I don't see that type of feature in SCARM.

Here's the image showing the track heights superimposed on the graphic design of the platform structure.

 

 

The dimensions given are from the lower end of each track section. I'm using Ross sectional track. You can see that most of them DON't fall onto the joists so in some cases I had to interpolate what the height would be at a riser. Since the slope is constant, I picked the lowest height before it started rounding the curve and set the riser a little higher than 4.00" above the mean table height. I fastened that riser in and leveled the head. Then I drove a small screw into it and one on the first 5.00" riser and range my string line between them. All I had to then do was bring the risers up to just touching the string, clamp them and screw them in.

 

I did the same thing going around the curve, but had to temporarily clamp some risers along the way to suspend the string going around the curve. I sighted up the string to see that it was continuing on the same slope as the upper section. It's a bit finicky, but the it worked out very nicely. When I laid the subroadbed on the risers I had a second opportunity to insure that the slope is straight. 

 

How do you get RR-track to label the height of the track at either the center of the rail piece of at the junction with the next piece?  I looked through the menus and couldn't figure this out, but it would be VERY helpful.  Thanks!  

Let me show you how to do it with a series of screen capture images.

 

The menu string is: First you need to be in the PLAN VIEW. Then it's OPTIONS,

 

 

 

and then the OPTIONS choice on the list. This is already a bit confusing.

 

 

 

Next, select the LAYOUT OPTIONS choice at the bottom of the dialog box.

 

 

Then you choose the DISPLAY TAB on top of this dialog box.

 

 

And Lastly you see the GRADE LABELS group where you choose how you want them displayed. The default is the center of the track with the Upper End as an optional choice.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

I know this "Layout Options" tag at the bottom of the window is elusive. I've spent lots of time looking where you turn on and off seeing the "terrrain view" when the plan is displayed.

 

BTW: I got these images through a great screen capture tool called SNAGIT. It not only lets you copy the image, but it let's you mess around with it graphically to put arrows, call-outs, etc. onto the image. It's a excellent tool for creating software training manuals and much more selective than using Screen Print and then hauling the image into PhotoShop to fix it up. It's not a free program, but if you do a lot of posting with images or create instructional materials of which I do both, this program pays for itself very quickly.

 

Worked like a charm. Thanks!