Increase of wire gauge to get "snappy" switch operation? How Much?

I'm actually pretty surprised that #22 wire isn't sufficient.  I'd spend some time tuning the O22 switches instead of changing the wire.  If you're paralleling two switches to operate at the same time, why not do a homerun to each switch instead of sending the current for two switches through the common wire?

Another simple fix instead of changing the wire gauge is to simply add a couple of volts to the switching circuit power.  That will probably do more for the switch action than increasing the size of the wire.  12 feet of wire isn't that long a run for the O22 switch.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm actually pretty surprised that #22 wire isn't sufficient.  I'd spend some time tuning the O22 switches instead of changing the wire.  If you're paralleling two switches to operate at the same time, why not do a homerun to each switch instead of sending the current for two switches through the common wire?

Another simple fix instead of changing the wire gauge is to simply add a couple of volts to the switching circuit power.  That will probably do more for the switch action than increasing the size of the wire.  12 feet of wire isn't that long a run for the O22 switch.

Let me second that opinion.  I doubt the higher wire gauge will do much for you.  You need to bump the power to the circuit.

On the Panhandle, all DZ-2500 switch machines are powered by a single 15VAC tap on a K-Line PowerChief 120F accessory transformer.  All the switches are connected via a bus.  Works fine.

George

I'm with John on this one Manny. The wire isn't your problem, voltage at the switch is. Measure what you have when you fire the switch and go from there. The switches on my layout are on track power (a mistake that I regret every time I run trains), and they "snap" nicely at 12-14 v +, below that they get lazy.

Bob

Thanks for the excellent advice.  Glad I didn't start yanking wire!

The solution of choice seems to be to add extra voltage to the switching circuit power.

Yet, Mr. Idiot here doesn't really know what that means.  I already have a direct fixed -voltage wire plugged into the side of every switch, using 18 gauge wire.   This voltage can't be  increased, because it come right out of a pole on my transformer.  Are you talking about increasing the gauge of this wire?

Or, are you guys perhaps talking about increasing the hot wire power to the center of the adjoining track sections?

Thanks for all advice.

Mannyrock

If you are using fixed voltage then measure what you are running. Don't know what your power source is, is it adjustable?

It's possible that it's a problem with the switches themselves, not the voltage they run on.

@Mannyrock posted:

The solution of choice seems to be to add extra voltage to the switching circuit power.

Yet, Mr. Idiot here doesn't really know what that means.  I already have a direct fixed -voltage wire plugged into the side of every switch, using 18 gauge wire.   This voltage can't be  increased, because it come right out of a pole on my transformer.  Are you talking about increasing the gauge of this wire?

Well, what voltage comes out of the "direct fixed -voltage wire" from the transformer?  If it's insufficient for proper switch operation, you need to find a voltage source that's sufficient!

OK, thanks for the advice.  I thought that the fixed voltage sent by the transformer was standardized, so that is wouldn't burn out standard switch motors.

I guess I need to find out what the upper voltage limit is for the switch motors,  and compare that to the fixed voltage output.

But, am I given to understand that I can simply disconnect the fixed voltage wire from the transformer pole, and attach it to a separate transformer unit, that will put out a higher fixed voltage?

Stupid question, but doesn't the fact that I would be increasing the voltage to the switches without also increasing the wire size/carrying power of the return neutral wires attached to the outside rails of the track, result in some kind of unhealthy power build up that could burn out the switch?

Thanks again.

Mannyrock

Can you let us know know what transformer you are using... and, what voltage you are getting at the switch?

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/72-3010-250.pdf

Lionel says 14 volts MAX... "IMPORTANT: Do not continuously apply more than 14 volts alternating or direct current to the switch (either via track power or through the auxiliary power terminal) or your switch may be damaged. Your power supply must have a circuit breaker rated at 8 amps or less."

@Mannyrock posted:

Stupid question, but doesn't the fact that I would be increasing the voltage to the switches without also increasing the wire size/carrying power of the return neutral wires attached to the outside rails of the track, result in some kind of unhealthy power build up that could burn out the switch?

You need to understand the difference between volts and amps to answer that question.   The answer, BTW, is no, no unhealthy effects.

Manny

Go for 16 or 14 gauge wire and deal with issues to install it.  Use a dedicated 14 volt and maybe 16 volt transformer, at least 40 watts.  The momentary solenoids in the switch will handle the short short bursts of either.

I operate many of my track switches in pairs meaning at the same time as if one is thrown the other has to be thrown too.  This saves on wire and cuts the number of push button switches to operate the two switches in one half.  This requires large wire size and 14 volts at least.

I use 14 ga wire for all track wiring too even with only 10 ft of distance.  You can not have a too large a wire size for train uses.

Charlie

As others have stated, increasing the wiring gauge. most likely, will not solve your problem.  Before any other suggestions are offered lets gets some more info to properly guide you.

1. What transformer are you using to power your switches?  What is the voltage set to to power the switches?

2. How many switches are being powered by the transformer?

3. Is the transformer being used to power anything else?

O22 switches use incandescent light bulbs.  One bulb for the switch and one bulb for the controller.  Those light bulbs eat up power.  We need to know how many switches so we can compute how much power you need.

For example, if you are powering 10 switches, that's 20 light bulbs.  If each bulb consumes 3 watts, that's 60 watts just to power the bulbs.  If you are using a a CW 80 to power this, that's only an 80 watt transformer and you are nearing capacity.  This is why we need to know you specifics so we can give you the correct answer.

You can also switch the incandescent bulbs for LEDs saving quite a lot of power. They are available in both types used by different versions of O22 switches.

22 gauge wire is too small for a 10' or more run at 14 volts.

@cbq9911a posted:

22 gauge wire is too small for a 10' or more run at 14 volts.

Why?  (I ask this for the sake of the newbies, not because I don't have an answer.)

Mike

In a long run of small gauge wire you'll have voltage drop.  For a 12' run of 22 gauge wire, you'd have 14 volts at the source but 10 volts at the end.

I've always used 14g to carry the track power of 18v and 18g to carry the accessory power of 14v. Have some 10ft runs at the longest points. Never had any issues with those sizes. My 2cents

OK, thanks for all of this advice. 

Based on all of it, I re-analyzed everything, and have solved my "problem," which never really existed.

(I had previously switched all of my switch bulbs to LED two years ago, based on the advice from this board.)

1.  In total, the advice made me seriously question whether the switch wires were the problem, or the power source to the switches.   So, I unplugged from the switches the direct power plugs, and turned my transformer dial up to its highest setting, so that the power to the switches was coming from the tracks.   The switches really snapped, in each direction, really loudly!  This showed me that the switches did not have a mechanical problem, and that the "problem" was the direct power line, from the 14 volt pole of my transformer.

2.   So, I triple checked the direct power lines, to make sure there were no breaks or bad splices.  All looked good.

3.  Then I turned my transformer dial down, and  I started fiddling with the direct voltage "plugs' that plug into the sides of the sluggish switches.  I found that when I really pushed them in, and held them hard, the bulbs got brighter in the switch lanterns.  So, these plugs were the problem, and nothing else.

4.  The plugs I am using were bought brand new about two years ago.  Compared to the original Lionel plugs, they are cheesy, and super-slick on the surfaces.  So, no matter how hard you cram them in, they want to "squirt out",  sometimes immediately, and sometimes over time.

5.  I solved the problem by getting rid of the plugs, and taking a 16 gauge straight "crimp" connector (the kind where you shove the wires in on each side).  On one side of the connector, I cut off the extended hollow plastic sleave, that is shaped like a cone, so that on the end of that side I was looking straight at the open metal hole of the connector.  I shoved this side of the connector straight into the hole on the side of the switch, and onto the copper plug line of the switch.  If it was a little loose at first, I very light crimped that end to close the hole up a bit and shoved it back on.   The crimp connector fit tight, and since that section of the connector is covered by a straight plastic tube (not a cone) it did not "squirt" out of the side of the switch motor.   It was solid as a rock.

6.  I then just shoved the stripped end of my direct power line into the other end of the connector, and crimped it tight.

Result, problems totally solved.  These long run switches operate great.  A real surprise to me, since the controller wires are only 22 AWG.

Question:  When you operate a switch controller, do these light 22 AWG wires actually carry a 14 volt current to operate the turn out?  Or do they just, for one half, second somehow "trip" or activate something in the switch motor to reverse the polarity of the juice from the direct power line or the power from the tracks?.

Again, thanks for all of the great advice.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

OK, thanks for all of this advice.

Based on all of it, I re-analyzed everything, and have solved my "problem," which never really existed.

Question:  When you operate a switch controller, do these light 22 AWG wires actually carry a 14 volt current to operate the turn out?  Or do they just, for one half, second somehow "trip" or activate something in the switch motor to reverse the polarity of the juice from the direct power line or the power from the tracks?.

Again, thanks for all of the great advice.

Mannyrock

Analysis by paralysis......

Glad you found the problem Manny.

And to answer your last question- the controller acts as a single pole- double throw momentary switch. The current necessary to energize the solenoid and throw the switch does flow from the switch, through the controller, and back.

Bob

Mannyrock said:

"Result, problems totally solved.  These long run switches operate great.  A real surprise to me, since the controller wires are only 22 AWG.

Question:  When you operate a switch controller, do these light 22 AWG wires actually carry a 14 volt current to operate the turn out?  Or do they just, for one half, second somehow "trip" or activate something in the switch motor to reverse the polarity of the juice from the direct power line or the power from the tracks?."

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

When you operate an 022 switch the power flows first from your transformer to the aux power plug, then to the remote, then back again to the switch (when the remote is activated), then thru the solenoid coil and finally returns through your track back to your transformer ground. If you have a 12 foot run to your remote, that counts as 24 feet of wire dropping voltage. Plus switches that are a long distance from your transformer will see a loss through the aux power wire. It all adds up. During normal operation you won't notice any trouble because the only load you have is the indicator bulb at the remote. But when you activate the controller the coil load is about 4 amps, and that will cause significant voltage drop. Hope that makes sense.

Personally i use 18AWG wire for the aux power supply, and I run my 022's at 16VDC. Most of the remote wires are the standard 22AWG 3 wire black stuff, but a couple I have re-wired with 18AWG 3 conductor solid thermostat wire. This stuff is nicely color coded, sheathed, and readily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

Earlier in this topic someone said you shouldn't run 022's on anything more than 14 volts, and only AC, not DC. Rubbish. I have been running my 30+ 022's as above since 1998 with no ill effects, and they snap reliably and crisply.

Rod

@Joe Fermani posted:

...

O22 switches use incandescent light bulbs.  One bulb for the switch and one bulb for the controller.  Those light bulbs eat up power.  We need to know how many switches so we can compute how much power you need.

For example, if you are powering 10 switches, that's 20 light bulbs.  If each bulb consumes 3 watts, that's 60 watts just to power the bulbs.  If you are using a a CW 80 to power this, that's only an 80 watt transformer and you are nearing capacity.  This is why we need to know you specifics so we can give you the correct answer.

@Scotie posted:

You can also switch the incandescent bulbs for LEDs saving quite a lot of power. They are available in both types used by different versions of O22 switches.

@Mannyrock posted:

...

(I had previously switched all of my switch bulbs to LED two years ago, based on the advice from this board.)...

Glad the OP already uses LEDs, but still wanted to second that suggestion.  In addition to eating up power, incandescent bulbs also generate a lot of heat - I've seen numerous melted light covers, and felt some getting soft at 14ish volts.  Seems like more of a problem with aftermarket replacements, but it's always better to keep things cool.  If you're running TMCC or DCS and using track power for the switches, you're exceeding 14 volts.

Also, I've found that performance is improved by cleaning the switch and motor - many of them are older than we are.

I use straight barrel connectors rather than the cone-shaped plugs - they seem to stay in place better.